INTRO  0:04  
This recording is an offering of Networks for Training and Development's Online University.

Jessica Stover  0:18  
Hi everyone and welcome to our first ever Network's Think A Thon. And we are recording this session and we're thrilled to be with you today. We got a couple of folks joining in. And if you're watching this recording, this is being recorded on September 11, 2020. So we're gonna be talking a little bit, sharing a little bit, brainstorming a little bit. If there's kind of a, something you're pondering, wondering about, please feel free to bring that to the table. That's what this is all about; is to be kind of, you know, using our, our hive mind, if you will, our collective brainpower to think through. Just ask you to be sensitive to any particular situations or identifying information, privacy issues, things like that; unless the person has given consent for that. So without further ado, I'm going to turn it over to Rosa McAllister.

Rosa McAllister  1:04  
Thanks, Jess. Hi, everyone, and Aloha. I'm coming to you from beautiful Maui, Hawaii, where it is nine o'clock in the morning. So, I know the others of you, I think are all in the Pennsylvania area or Southeastern, maybe not Southeastern Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania area. So I know it's, what 3pm in the afternoon. And it's Friday. Woohoo! So we thought of this. Actually, Tracy Lapreziosa, who is an extraordinary occupational therapist who works with us at Networks; we were brainstorming, actually a few months ago around a situation that we were working with a person. I think it was Tracy that said, "You know, this would be a cool thing if we let other people in on this; brainstorm with us - great minds and all of that. So this is the process that we use. And we've been using Zoom a lot like, a lot of you others out there. With the pandemic, with the COVID-19, the Coronavirus happening and us not being able to come together as we may be used to, we're using Zoom a lot. But this is a process that we've used within Networks for years, which is no big deal. I'm sure many of you do it in many different ways, both at work at home and other different ways, of where something - you're trying to sort something out and you get other people together, or you bring it up with other people to get their input. And sometimes great things come from it. And frankly, sometimes like, some bizarre things come from it. But you say, "thank you", but it's really not helpful at all. So, but whatever comes from it comes from it. And if you're like me, a lot of times just even voicing the situation helps me think somewhat out of the box. So this process is used across many different fields. In the medical field, it's kind of known as Grand Rounds, where doctors will, will discuss, usually right with a patient, but review the patient's situation. And they'll brainstorm, "what's really going on?" You know, any of us who watch "ER", or any of the many doctor shows - "Chicago Med" or any of that - we see this on TV. But this is also used in many other fields as well. So we thought that we would do it here. 

Rosa McAllister  3:07  
So we're going to be doing this four times throughout the year. This Think A Thon, if you will. And we have prepared, kind of some different scenarios that we've been involved with or are involved with. But also, if any of you have situations that you're involved with that you want to brainstorm, please jump in and let us know as well. We'll weave some pauses in some times. We'll probably get us started with one situation and kind of brainstorm. But jump in with your ideas and your thoughts. Everybody is welcome, very informal. I will give a caveat that, you know, kind of the basic any suggestions or ideas or anything discussed here in no way is expert opinion. If any of these situations, please know that it's our perspective, the person who's bringing up the situation. It may not be the full story. We know that in many situations. But at least it's our perspective of it. And any suggestions or things that come from the discussion, are not written in stone or in any way are suggestions to go forth. They might be more things to think about, tryout or what have you. Make sense? So we're going to be doing - I'm just going to mention this - and we will have this announced and maybe somebody can put it in the chat as well. We're going to be doing these again on December 11th, at the same time frame, 9a or sorry, 3pm Eastern Time. And we'll be specifically talking about funding and resources and creative ways around that. Again on March 12th, we're at same time frame, 3pm Eastern Time, where we'll be talking about issues around privacy. And how do we deal with that, because that's a big thing, and many fields but certainly in our field working with people with intellectual and other disabilities and assisting them. And then again on June 11th, we'll be meeting again, for the last one of these four Think A Thons this year. And that one's on, everyday actions that we can take; simple everyday things. 

Rosa McAllister  4:55  
Today's topic is "What does a person - how to figure out what a person really wants." I'm going to fade off. And I think Jess, I think you were going to get us started with our first scenario to Think A Thon about.  

Jessica Stover  5:08  
All right. So I'm going to kind of paint a picture here. You know, feel free to jump in and ask questions. So, we run, at Networks, not now - so, this has happened, probably about a year ago, we run community bodywork clinics, where anyone can come and get a short massage, a 5 -10 minute massage, or reflexology, or Reiki or what have you. And we did a variety of these things for a number of years. And it's open for anyone to attend. There was someone who came; I only knew them very much on the periphery. They experience the world, I think a little differently. They've shared a little bit of that with me. So, but, but words don't always come easily for them, or to be able to effectively express what they're saying. People that know this person really well, as well as a therapist who's in the room, had some real significant concerns just surrounding touch, and the person and think, frankly, consent too. So I wanted to just, kind of, think through how we could better hear that person and support them to get what they're seeking, in this particular instance. 

Rosa McAllister  6:16  
Given that, anybody want to jump in? Any questions, any thoughts? Whatever. I'll get us started. I would just, you knew this person a little bit, or was this information transferred from others, or from their giant, big black books about the person or what? 

Jessica Stover  6:31  
All the above. All the above. It was the little bits that I knew. It was little bits that was shared with me that maybe really shouldn't have been shared with me. I don't know. I think sometimes we overshare with others, on what's going on in a person's life without their okay. And certainly in the big black books of history, if you will, or types of support the person's receiving that. So it was a variety of information sources.

Rosa McAllister  6:57  
Anybody can unmute if you want or put something in the "chat", which is down on the bottom. You can select on "chat" and type in something. If you have a question or thoughts. I'm just, my brains going. So interrupt me. But, so I'm just thinking, what were the concerns, that in a body work clinic that is generally touch based, was the concern that touch might be a problem for this person?

Jessica Stover  7:20  
That, the concern was, due to the person's history, touch could be a trigger point and an area of triggering for them. Additionally, they would tell me, they didn't like to be touched.  However, they would seemingly seek out touch. So it was interesting, what's going on? What to do?

Rosa McAllister  7:41  
Yeah. I've known a lot of people like that. It's like, touch on their own terms. Not surprised touch, not whatever. But yeah, touch on their own terms. And in fact, I remember somebody, years and years and years ago that I worked with that, people would say, "Oh, you can't touch him. You can't touch him!"  But he also had a, quote, behavior program. I'm doing the "air quotes" - of behavior program to stop touching people inappropriately. And yet, it was like this conundrum. It's like, "wait, wait, what?" - trying to figure that out. And what, with that person, what we kind of found is that, he really wanted touch. But he wanted it, when he initiated it, or when it was okay with him.

Jessica Stover  8:18  
That really seemed to be the basis of all of this. You know, like I said, this was something that happened, and we work through it. So, I have a little bit more of that background that I'm not I'm not giving you the whole story. At the end of the day, if you will, or the end of the session or the end of the event, you know, I was talking more. I'm like, well, telling me you don't want to be touched, yet you want to be touched. And you don't like to be touched. And it was exactly that, Rosa. It - this person - for control. You know, they shared with me that, you know, they don't feel like they have a lot of control in their lives. And if they want touch, they want to have control of that and how it happens and when it happens and with what pressure. It was kind of like, everyone in the room, people that were very concerned of touch would be a bad thing for this person or could be triggering. It was kind of this really wonderful and beautiful lightbulb moment of, it's what the person wants and what works for them. So it was really neat to see it play out and that the person, kind of being, not kind of, but just being in control of that situation. And that we were all able to clearly listen and hear about that. Alan asks, here in chat, "Is there any information about abuse or inappropriate touching?" So this person does have a history of experienced abuse.

Allison Smale  9:32  
Hi, Jess. It's Alli.

Jessica Stover  9:34  
Hi Alli.

Allison Smale  9:34  
So I guess, I mean, I never, I typically do not work with people in instances where there is that level of physicality. Where touch is kind of an integral part of what you're trying to provide. I completely hear what you're saying, in that there seemed to be that desire for control in this situation. So I take it back to employment, which is what I do know. And think about, you know, when we are faced with either contradictory information about someone's wants or desires. We might take it to an experiential learning kind of place where you can set it up ahead of time, so that the individual has very clear expectations for the experience. And you can try touching, you know, different areas of the body with different touch. And then that individual can say, "That's something that I like," versus,"That is something that I do not like." And then you can kind of create your own boundaries that are going to work for that particular situation.

Jessica Stover  10:37  
And that's actually, Alli, exactly what played out with these clinics. Everyone saw it clearly in front of them what was happening. And if they were able to visually see it, it was described, as far as the setup of the room, what was going on, what type of touch. So they were able to experience it in a variety of different ways. And then they could see what this looks like, what that looks like. Whether it was massage, or Reiki or reflexology, or acupressure, what have you. And then, kind of choose like, "Okay, this seems like a safe choice for me.  I'd like to try that."  So it really was, at the end of the day this, like you're talking about, this type of setup. That worked really well.

Rosa McAllister  11:17  
Suzanne, you have your hand raised. 

Suzanne  11:19  
Okay, now, I think I'm unmuted. Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about this whole "touch topic". Especially right now, during the COVID-19 era, I know for me, touch is a really touchy topic because sometimes, when you have a disability, people think it's okay for them to touch you, but it's not okay for you to touch them. It's that they think that people with disabilities don't need to have their boundaries respected. You know, just respecting people's boundaries and, and everything is so, so important. And it just comes very often just second nature to people, at least for me, that they want to touch me, to move me out of the way or something like that. And sometimes it can actually be harmful. So I'm so glad that you brought up this topic. And thank you so much. I know this isn't exactly the same issue as the person that you were talking about initially. But I figured since we were bringing up touch, it's such an important topic. And yet at the same time, touch is so important, and to have the ability to touch. And so often people say, "Oh, don't touch that. Don't touch that!" But sometimes you need to touch things just to get, to gather information. Touch, you know, touch is so important. I can't say that enough. Thanks so much.

Jessica Stover  12:56  
I'm sitting here nodding my head in agreement, Suzanne. Alan has in the chat here. So piggyback, piggyback off of what Alli was saying, "How does this individual handle going to doctors?"  "And is there any conversation on what they should expect?" I can't, I don't know. I can't speak to that. I don't know. I only know them in the context of coming to the body work clinic.

Rosa McAllister  13:18  
And, I, this is great conversation. I would just add in, I think it's so interesting, too, that this person, she even came to the bodywork clinic. So whose idea was that? Was it, you know, how was that presented to her?  I'd like to believe that that was a choice that she made. But that somebody even brought it up to her, is curious to me. You know, if this is someone who is, kind of, notorious for "quote" not being, liking touch, or what have you. Which it sounds like was part of it. And yet just, this came up somehow. How interesting that she even came and how wonderful. Because, I'm thinking maybe you can go on with some more the story, Jess, about what actually transpired for her.

Jessica Stover  14:04  
So I do know how she ended up, did end up coming. She has some really wonderful folks in her life. And this opportunity came up and someone had suggested you know, "Would you like to go and try this and you can just watch." "You don't even have to try anything you can just go and watch." And the next thing I know, the person is in my anti- gravity chair, socks off, shoes off, feet in the air, ready. And, but - and everyone's still going, kind of like, pins and needles. Like, "Oh my gosh! What's gonna happen?" Like, "This person doesn't like to be touched. The history of trauma." "Oh my goodness." And everyone, you can kind of hear a pin drop in the room. I'm, I spent a lot of time talking with the person. Kind of, you know, showing them on myself of what my hands would be doing to just - and I said specifically to their feet or their hands. And they chose their feet, clearly. And they were able to watch the person beside them also getting reflexology done to their feet, by a different practitioner. And we spent time just talking about it. What it is, what it can do for you, all of that. 

Jessica Stover  15:05  
Throughout this whole time the person kept saying, "I don't want you to touch me." "I don't want you to touch me." And it was completely by accident. My arm actually was butted up against their, kind of, ankle area. So it was skin, skin touch. And I said, "Oh, you don't want me to touch you". "I'm so sorry. I'll move my arm." "Oh, no, no. That's okay." "You can leave your arm there." I said, "Okay".  I said, "Well, if I'm going to do the reflexology, I do have to touch you."  "Okay, you can do the reflexology." "But I don't want you to touch me."  I was like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to do this?  I said, "Okay, absolutely. I won't touch you." "But, I want you to do the reflexology."  It was this back and forth. And I said, "Well, why don't you put - take my hand and you can put it on your foot, if you'd like." And so they did that. And again, they were taking control of the situation. And then I said, 'Okay, you can take my hand and you can squeeze it around your foot."  "Does this feel okay?"  "Yes, this feels good."  "Do you want me to start squeezing and doing more reflexology on your feet?"  "Yes."  And slowly, ever so slowly, the person relaxed, even more. And at one point, they actually dozed off for about five minutes. Lightly snoring even. 

Jessica Stover  16:16  
And again, going back, and everyone in the room again, pin drop on the floor, would sound like a freight train going through the room, because everyone was kind of holding their breath and watching all of this play out. And when we were done, I said to them, I said, you know, "I hope this was good for you." "That you enjoyed it, it was helpful. "And that's when it came out more of, you know, "I really don't like to be touched because people touch me without my permission all the time." "And you asked permission." But more on the fact, and I'm not tooting Network's horn or anything. And this is, you know, I have made a lot of mistakes, and not doing things the right way. So this is after doing things the wrong way, a lot of times with figuring out how to do things the right way, or what worked for this person. You know, letting, allowing and giving control over because that's what it was all about. The person had to feel comfortable in the situation, and to experience and work through all of this. So it was, it was a pretty powerful 20 minutes. I'll just say that. And I think supporters, kind of left, that were in the line of thinking of, "we can't touch, we shouldn't touch." Of the, "hey, touch is okay, on this person's terms." I think there was a shift. I don't know if that shift carried, had further ripple effects. I like to think that it did. I think for the therapist, there was a shift as well. And this person taught us a whole lot in a very short amount of time. 

Rosa McAllister  17:48  
I know the therapist who was watching, has talked about that very scenario a lot. About how, in her own very well schooled, trained, protective mind was, "No, no, no!" "Don't do that. Don't do it." "You're not allowed to touch this person." You really shouldn't be doing this.", etc, etc. And then, like, "Oh, my gosh!" "But wait a second, wait a second, wait a second." "Oh, my gosh!" And she has since gone on, this therapist, to talk about what she calls the "touch desert", that a lot of people live in. That Suzanne, I know something that you've talked about too. This whole idea of, that a lot of folks we know, who have disabilities, as well as a lot of people who are senior citizens, and certainly a lot of people nowadays, shut in because of COVID and other - there's a "touch desert". People just aren't receiving touch. And might be seeking it in ways that aren't the greatest way or are depressed or what have you. So thanks for sharing Jess, so much. 

Rosa McAllister  18:45  
I'm cognizant of the time. We're kind of allowing about an hour for these Think A Thons. It's not a whole lot of time. So anybody else want to jump in?  Or who wants to jump in maybe with a situation that you're, kind of, in the midst of right now and wondering about? That maybe we could all think along or brainstorm with you. Or maybe it's something that from the past, kind of,  as Jeff shared, that was where we did do a lot of thinking about. Who wants to go next?

Allison Smale  19:12  
This is Alli again.  I can go with a question. 

Rosa McAllister  19:14  
Awesome. Please go for it, Alli.

Allison Smale  19:16  
So we're working with a gentleman who has had typical employment in the past. And that, you know, we've worked with him and he's given us ideas about what kinds of jobs he's want - wanted.`And he's, typically requests jobs that are in the dietary realm. Like, not necessarily preparing food but serving, um, bussing, hosting, those kinds of roles. And he has had three different jobs with us over the years. He usually keeps those jobs for about a year to a year and a half. And then he very clearly loses interest, loses motivation and then the job, kind of, peters out. The team has really recently begun to, discussing, if whether or not self employment might be a good option for this person. I'm happy to explore that with him. It just seems that historically, this individual has a really hard time having honest conversations with us about what he really wants. And the team generally feels that he responds by telling the team what he thinks the team wants to hear, versus what he truly wants and desires and his own life. And we're trying to, you know, the typical conversations of, you know, a one on one conversation. Or limiting team size so that there's less pressure to maybe conform to what others might want. We've tried one on one conversations. We try and promote a trusting and respectful environment, when we're talking. But the team just really feels like we're not getting to the bottom of his, his desires. And so I thought maybe the group might have had similar experiences with our folks. It's not, I don't feel so much a communication issue. He communicates really clearly, both in his words and his actions. I think it's a hesitancy to be really open and honest with everyone on his, his on his team. So just thought, If anyone has any words of wisdom for us.

Rosa McAllister  21:32  
Sounds pretty familiar to me. Thank you, Alli. Can I ask a question just to get us - and Joe, I see you've unmuted and I'm not gonna hog this up - but just a question? So when it's time to change jobs, and my apologies if you already said this, how do you know it's time to change jobs for him?

Allison Smale  21:50  
Typically, he'll exhibit behavior like not, not getting up for work? Um, it's not, he doesn't like act out at work or anything like that. He avoids, avoids going to work. Avoids getting there on time. 

Rosa McAllister  22:06  
Gotcha. Yeah. 

Allison Smale  22:09  
You know, doesn't pursue his, his schedule or his calendar. It's those kinds of avoidance mechanisms that we see the most.

Rosa McAllister  22:18  
I was gonna say, anybody - Jess is raising your hand - but I was gonna say, anybody here want to raise your hand, if you've ever done that at a job?

Allison Smale  22:26  
I don't have my camera on but I'm waving.  I...

Rosa McAllister  22:30  
Jess, Jess just raised two hands. I have a broken hand.  I would be raising both my hands too, if I could.  I, when you first started talking, I have to tell you - Joe just gave a thumbs up. When you first started talking, I am, I don't share this with everyone but I'll share with all of you and those who might watch this later. So my first year out of college, I had 13 jobs. And I'm not exactly proud of that. And I like to say that, Oh, I was finding my way. But what I, and I kind of was. But yeah, I know that my family and others around me were, kind of, like Rosa, "what in the world are you doing?"  But I just kept - I would get in a job - when I mean the shortest one that, I never not showed up for a job. But the shortest one was, I went to a job. And I stayed an hour and I left. But I just kept going through jobs trying to find what I, what I wanted and what I didn't want. Because I really didn't know. I thought I knew but I didn't. So anyway, Joe, others?

Allison Smale  23:27  
Yeah, I was just gonna say, Rosa, that's a really good point that, knowing what you don't want is even more valuable than knowing what you do. Really good point. 

Rosa McAllister  23:35  
I think so. 

Allison Smale  23:36  
Really good point. Hi, Joe.

Joe Murphy  23:38  
Hey, Alli, how are you? 

Allison Smale  23:39  
Great. Happy Friday.

Joe Murphy  23:41  
Yes, it is a Happy Friday. I think Rosa, your story there, kind of, brings home sort of, what the two points I want to make. One was, why is he coming back, keep coming back to the dietary, food service type position? What is it about those type of jobs? What, what, why are you going there? And second, I mean, I think of looking around the name most - I know a lot of names that are here. And a few of us are in the employment realm of our field. And that year, I think, isn't that typical for most employees of those type positions stay? I mean, in a years - I think it's about time people stay in a lot of them and leave. I'm not saying those with disabilities. I'm saying generally in a lot of those fields, in a lot of those positions.

Allison Smale  24:27  
Right? I don't think you're wrong, Joe. I think, if the team would say or if this individual would say, is like that's just the the span of time that I want to be in a job and then I want to do something new, I'd be fine with that. The trouble is, as you know, funders aren't not necessarily okay with that because of the amount of time and energy and funds - thank you for the thumbs up - that go into finding a job. So I think, that ultimately what happens is, the funder asks, "Well, are you finding this individual the quote, unquote, "correct job"; the job they really want?" And the, the, I guess the point is, is that we really don't kno. Why this individual continues to kind of point us back towards dietary, again? I'm not sure. And I guess that's what I was, kind of, looking for. What other strategies or models for, you know, facilitated conversation, can we utilize to get a clearer answer.  I saw Jess raising her hand.

Jessica Stover  25:27  
So, a couple of different things come to mind for me, of folks that I've known over the years. One is doing some really good intensive, you call it Person Centered Planning. Planning for the future.  You're really getting to know the person which I'm sure you guys have done. And yet this person keeps circling back. There's one person that came to mind immediately. His name was Eric. He passed away a number of years ago. But he kept circling into, kind of, similar, of "I want to work at McDonald's."  "I want to do this." And Joe, I think you met, you met Eric. Michelle, you might have met Eric, too. He's a really cool guy. Cool guy. Yeah. And part of, what finally came out - and this was after about two years, of kind of walking along with he and his team - he felt that that was the only positions that were good for him because he didn't feel good enough for any other positions. That's what he was hearing from other people around him. And that's what he was experienced, experiencing from other people in his life. Either other folks who attended a particular day program that he attended as well. And also just getting the sense of, "Well, this is the best I'm ever going to be able to do." "So this is all I want to try to do."

Jessica Stover  26:45  
The other piece I'll bring up now, this is kind of a non traditional approach. There is a, there is as a guy, I know, he's still around - he would tell me "yes" to everything. And he was at our office one day, this was years ago. And he kept going over to the door and turning the knob to like, open the door and leave. But he wouldn't open the door. And I kept, I was trying to force him to tell me "no". And I said, okay, "So, Bob, do you want to stay?" "Yes." But he'd go over to the doorknob and try to open the door to leave. And finally, you know, we kept asking a bunch of different ways, trying to force a "no" answer - to tell him, to get him to tell me what he thought I didn't want to hear - because he's kind of conditioned to, to, you know, kind of, be the "yes, man". Always give the affirmative of, "Yes, everything's okay." "I agree with you"; all of that. And finally, I just kind of looked at him and I said, you know, "I want you to give, you know, have an opinion on something." And I did it very, you know, no nonsense. Just "Have an opinion on something." "Do you want to stay?" "What do you want right now?" "Do you want to stay?" And he looked at me, just like daggers shooting out of his eyes, and he used a communication device. And he slammed down the "No" button, flew out the door, whipped it open, flew out the door and out across the parking lot to the car he went. And his support person's like "Oh, my gosh! I can't believe you talked to him like that." I'm like, he needed to tell me what he wanted. And we were spinning our wheels. And you know, it wasn't the soft, cuddly kind of thing. But I was, by no means, mean about it. But I just, what, you have to tell me what you want. And he did. And things started to shift a little bit. He started saying, "No", a little more often, which was really cool. And on one more than one occasion, he told me where the sun doesn't shine, which was really cool. But those are the things that come to mind whether that's helpful or not. But like I said, for Eric, in particular, he was on the thinking of, "well, this is all I can do."  Because this is, in one way or the other, he's either seeing, he's only seeing his co-workers and friends doing this job. Or he's hearing, in a roundabout way, that this is the only job that you can do or that you're capable of. Or this is the very best you'll ever going to do. And there's no shame in doing any job at all, if it's something you love. But it wasn't a fit for him, because he was kind of a similar. Wasn't keeping these, these, these jobs that were gotten for him. So I'm gonna mute and go back off the video.

Allison Smale  29:17  
That's really interesting,Jess. Thanks for bringing that up. It actually raises a question in my brain. When we first started working with this gentleman, many years ago, he was living at home with family. And since then he has now moved into a fairly typical residential community home kind of situation. I think maybe a good question to ask is - and I'll be honest, because we don't work with any of the other people who happen to live in his home - I don't know that we've ever asked the question, "Do they work?" Do they have, you know, competitive jobs and if so, what are they in? And does this individual have some preconceived notions about what, like, what he's able to do? Or does he truly have a broader reference. It would seem that he's somebody that has a fairly broad reference. But I think that it makes really good sense to try and test that out a little bit. So thanks for bringing that up about your friend Eric. That's, that's really, really helpful.

Michelle Sparling  30:13  
Hey Alli, it's Michelle. A couple thoughts. (Yeah)  As I'm hearing about this interesting guy, it to me, it almost sounds to like he's, if he's done dietary for so long, it's kind of what he knows. And think about all the people that we know in our lives that are in the same jobs year after year. And then they go and change and they stay in the same industry. He sounds like a lot of other people that we may have heard about, and they just kind of get in a rut and are afraid to try something new. And I think the challenge is, how do you, you know, support him to try something new. And it sounds like that's where part of the struggle is.  But I'm wondering, too, the other part is, you know, I know we we have a certain model that we tend to follow within job development and discovery, and all. But I'm wondering if there's maybe a different approach, taking it from like a life coaching perspective, and walk down a different path with him, of like a different strategy, of how to pull information from him in a different way. I don't have the exact answers to that. But I'd be more than happy to like brainstorm it out with you later too. Like, what could that look like? 

Allison Smale  31:21  
Yeah, that's also a really good point. We, we at KenCrest, we utilize the Charting the Life course tools. So, maybe we could, rather than having, because obviously, most of the meetings that I'm involved with, have have a real clear employment focus. But maybe if I got his circle of support together and really said, "You know what? Instead of focusing on employment, let's take another turn. Let's, let's focus on broader life goals." He's not really open for, you know, what, what we would deem as discovery. I think we've tried to do that with him. But again, living in the group home environment, he has a fairly limited life. Which, again, he states that he's very comfortable with. But I think maybe broadening that Charting the Life course methodology, or a similar type of planning tool, might, might help to, maybe get to that answer, but by taking kind of the long way around to get there. So thanks for that. That's that's a really good point.

Michelle Sparling  32:21  
That's a way, the way you worded that is perfect. That you may have to take a longer way around and ask different types of questions that are going to get to what you're looking for with him, to help him see that. 

Allison Smale  32:31  
Yeah, fantastic. Thanks so much. I don't want to monopolize the rest of the group (start?) So, if somebody else has, has a question, or topic...

Joe Murphy  32:40  
I had a quick thought that just to follow up, Alli. Sorry. What if, I mean, if he went back to the dietary type job, what if when that time comes, where he's getting stuck in not wanting to be there? Is it maybe challenging him, maybe to do something different, that same job? I mean, we all need different projects at work, in order - (absolutely) So, maybe it's, "I'm sick of just being a fry cook the whole time." "I'm sick of making fries. And now I need to go make the burgers." I don't know. I mean, it might be something simple as that - as a change of scenery, a little bit of jobs too, can help keep a person, too.

Allison Smale  33:12  
Really good point, Joe. And I'll be honest, because I'm, sadly, don't do as much of the day to day stuff. I'm a little bit disconnected from what was, what was possible at that point. But that's a really good point to keep in mind for the future as - cause you're right. I mean, as human beings, we like to grow and change and develop. And, and if that opportunity was not presented to him, when he started showing signs of being bored with the job, then yeah, that onus would certainly be on us to ensure that it's available. So thanks for that.

Rosa McAllister  33:42  
Thanks, Joe. You were kind of reading my mind. I was thinking similar. And I was even going back to my 13 jobs my first year out of college. You know, kind of at one point, I, threw a suggestion of a friend, I wrote down all the different jobs that I had, and what was good about them, what was not good about them. The pros and cons of each of them. And what I saw is that there was a similar pattern of, it wasn't the job, per se. It was frankly the supervisors. Or it was other things about the job, etc, that, that made me move on quickly to something else. And it honed in for me, what I, kind of, like what I was saying before, what didn't work for me and what did work what I was really seeking. For me it was more autonomous work. It was more you know, what have you. And thinking, I was thinking similarly, Joe.  Like, you know, maybe it's, maybe he really does like the food industry. Maybe that really does work for him. And maybe he's just sorting through and finding the roles, the different roles. He's trying them out for size. I don't know. Or maybe he's discerning what works and what doesn't work within that. I don't know. You know, it might be interesting to even find out for him within that. Did he, was he watching somebody else? Thinking back for me and the one job, I was, when I really thought about it, I kept watching somebody else who had a similar job but a little bit different, and I was envious of them. Why can't I be working like them? And it gave more clues about what I was really seeking.

Allison Smale  35:08  
Yeah, I think that's an awesome point. Thanks, as well, for that insight, Rosa. Using your own, you know, personal experience. That's, that's helpful. I've written suggestions. Hi, Shauna.

Shauna Roman  35:22  
All right, I was trying not to chime in. But I do have one quick thing to add. Um, I knew someone actually who worked pretty successfully in different situations. And maybe not the exact situation that you're describing, but it reminds me of that. And the one thing that he struggled with was not the job itself, but the social aspects of the job. And the making friends part and connecting with people. And he's the kind of guy that just kind of like to do his work and go home. And so it got really uncomfortable for him in situations where he would do his job really well. And then he would get known, and then it would kind of freak him out to be honest. And, and navigating all of those social situations became like a source of real stress for him. And he would say, "You know what, I can't do this anymore." So it had nothing to do with the job itself. But those other aspects that we don't always pay attention to as much.

Allison Smale  36:23  
Great. That's really interesting. Good to know. Thank you for that.

Rosa McAllister  36:28  
Very cool. Cool. Alli, thank you so much. And again, like the caveat in the beginning, I don't know if any of this will take you anywhere or help you. But just the process of brainstorming is, frankly, fun for us.

Allison Smale  36:42  
Yeah, I love - It's given us a lot of avenues that we can try and work down. And that's fantastic. Thanks so much.

Rosa McAllister  36:50  
Well, let us know what happens. 

Allison Smale  36:53  
Yeah, will do.

Rosa McAllister  36:54  
Anybody else? We have a few more minutes. Anybody else - another scenario, situation that maybe we can brainstorm a bit. 

Michelle Sparling  37:01  
So we, we actually do have a scenario that we're working through right now that we can brainstorm. And it, you can probably all relate into some degree. And Joe, fee,l please jump in. Because you know, a little bit more, for sure, about this than I do. But we're working with some families. And it's hard during this time. We're working with a couple of students. And you know, and they're doing remote learning, and trying to connect with the students during their work, or during their school day. And trying to do some virtual things on Zoom, and having family members interact and take control to a degree. It's been a bit rough. So I'd be curious to hear how your all handling working in this remote environment with some folks that you might be working with, as well. And how you're handling that around families who love their adult children or young adult children fiercely, and what's best for them. But it's hard to get things moving forward around employment when there's barriers, especially with COVID. So it's a hard one. I don't know, Joe, if you want to add any specific details.

Joe Murphy  38:10  
I think you got it, got it pretty much, right? I mean, and not necessarily totally employment, either. Just having family members believe or dream? Believe is the wrong word. Dream might be the right word in these times. We're not saying, especially I don't know where everybody's from. I think some people do some work in a city - that some of the students haven't been put in the best positions to have different, to try different things and learn and the experiences in life that others have.

Michelle Sparling  38:42  
Yeah. And, you know, pre, pre COVID, we would be going out supporting students and figuring out with them, what they want to do. And trying things and helping their supporters to figure things out. And then we all know we had to stop all that.

Joe Murphy  38:58  
Some, in my mind, it actually comes a little bit back to Alli, your story a little bit. These students were told they could do X. And that's it. And I'm not sure if the gentleman your talking was told he could do X, which was dietary. And that's it. That was one of the things in my mind with your story. And how do we get them to experience Y and Q and A and B, when they can't go out and actually try it and have others see that they can do it and be successful or fail too.

Rosa McAllister  39:27  
Right? So, this is going back a million years - maybe not quite, slight exaggeration. In Philadelphia, there was a gentleman who actually was involved with us in one of our, one of the early Person Centered planning days, way back when. And very, very loving, protective, loving family that he lived in. And he came across very, very shy.  Kinda crossing over your story, Alli and Michelle and Joe your scenario that you're asking about. He came across very, very timid, very, very shy. Again very loved, very protected only child. You get the drill. And his parents, his mom in particular, bless her heart, was like he really needs to get out. He really needs to - this. But he also had some medical stuff and some things that made the family even more protective about him being near other people. He was very susceptible to viruses and bugs and things. So it really fits with today's time. Anyway, you know, and working with the family and him and trying to figure out what he really liked. It was really hard, because he could tell us but wouldn't tell us. He would, whenever you would ask him a question, he'd looked to his mom to answer for him, literally. And try as she might, or we might, it was really hard to get him to say stuff. 

Rosa McAllister  40:45  
So he eventually, through her, you know - when we started exploring different things, we were told that he really, as a child, really loved to play with the hose. And that he loved to drive through carwashes. So we, you know, put two and two together. Maybe he could do, kind of, an entrepreneurial thing, starting even just with his family, washing the car. This is a guy, by the way, who was in his 30s and never had a chore in his life. That's how protected and all that stuff. So, this idea that maybe he could wash cars, or wash at least the family's car. And that it would be protected. It would only be the family. It would be outside. It would only be certain hours. You know, all the protections around that. And I, you know, we were jumping ahead with, "Oh my gosh, my car always needs to be washed." "I'll bring my car by." And "Oh, we'll do this." "And he can start a business." "And we'll make a brochure and a flyer." "And he can have a car wash Saturday." And he can, you know, of course, we're running down the freight track. You know, the train, driving the train down and the guy hadn't even washed one car yet. Anyway, he ended up washing a half a car. Maybe not even a half a car, and then realize that - and very clearly, kind of, like what you Jess, very clearly told us by throwing the hose down and squirting his mother and his father purposefully - that he wanted no parts of washing cars. But it was an interesting way to try to find it out and to try to, try to, you know, curb our enthusiasm. And yes, also meet the protections of his family that, and that he really needed and also see. 

Rosa McAllister  42:13  
What we did find out is that he had a fascination with water. That opened us up to talk about many other things. And there was this fascination for water. And he actually got a job with the water company. I forget what it is in Philadelphia. But he did get a job with the water company and he proudly always wore, wore his work shirts, like all the time, because he was a water guy. So it was kind of a roundabout way of getting it, getting to it. But and there were lots of precautions and things that, still he worked third shift because there were less, a lot of less people there. Just thought I'd throw that in there. I always love to think about him in the carwash and our ridiculous enthusiasm around it.

Diane Kehoe  42:53  
Hi, this is Diane, from Networks. I'm wondering right now, I know, families are uneasy, rightfully so. Is it possible -we might normally take someone out to visit some places - Is it possible to do some virtual tours of folks working so the family can see the precautions being taken? They can see folks working, and maybe to at least help them become more comfortable that way. 

Michelle Sparling  43:21  
So I think some of that's happening, isn't it? There, there is some virtual work. And there's two different situations, two different students.  But they both have in common very protective parents. And I think one of the students does not appear to really enjoy the computer at all. But it's hard because we're not able to go out to see either of them to kind of move things along. And one of the students does have a support person with him all the time. So we're trying to work with, with the student and with his support person and with a parent, to get things done. Because he is going out and doing things but it's just making the connection about work has been difficult, of possibilities. Even using different phrases, just exploring, like what do you like? Taking, just go take photos of things you like. Not even getting to that, thinking about a job. We're still at the pre learning about the person, you know. And who he is and what he loves and what he doesn't love and I think we have some of that information. But now go take photos when you're out. Or, or in whatever way you can express to us, what is it you like, what did you do today? You know, just trying to get that support so we can get that information. It's been difficult.

Rosa McAllister  44:35  
Just a thought that I had from the virtual, maybe not liking a computer. Remember that if, if you have a smart TV, it acts as a computer. So you know, we know one of our co- workers ("I wonder") is at home and not happy at being at home. But is watching a whole lot of YouTube because he figured out how to do that through his TV. So you can still ("good point"), you know, maybe maybe doesn't like computers, but maybe loves TV. Really not that different these days.

Michelle Sparling  45:05  
Yeah Joe, I don't know if you know, if either students that we're working with, have a smart television.

Joe Murphy  45:13  
One, in one, yes. One does one doesn't. And they're doing a lot, of a lot of stuff we're saying, that they are doing now. The one still struggle. I mean, he's probably a lot closer to some of the description you gave Rosa. With the same gentlemen, from the past that you're saying, I mean, very medically fragile. And it also doesn't help that dad works in a very high risk job. Works for the University of Pennsylvania, I should say that, Hospital. ('Right,right") And so there worried, anybody coming to help him, that dad giving, getting them sick? I mean, they're worried that way too. I mean, so he, there's a lot of because of the fact.

Rosa McAllister  45:46  
Diane, you have your hand raised? 

Diane Kehoe  45:48  
Yeah, I love the YouTube idea. I just keep thinking, we worked with someone with, at Olney, who we kind of we're real struggling, really struggling with. He didn't have a real avenue for communication. And we found out, all of a sudden, that he watches all this Spanish movies on YouTube. Well. We didn't realize, well, he's using a communication device in English, and his primary language is Spanish.

Rosa McAllister  46:19  
I was just gonna ask that. Let me make a guess.

Diane Kehoe  46:22  
Yeah, well, obviously, that's a struggle. But still, that was how we figured out some of his likes. And we found out that it's the neighborhood kids come to him to, whenever they get stuck in a video game. And then within minutes, he gets them unstuck. ("Awesome"). YouTube, watch history is an awesome way. 

Rosa McAllister  46:40  
Yeah. It's an awesome way to find out somebodies - the other ID - you know, now my brain is clicking in gear. I'm thinking about a young woman. Oh, my gosh, this fascinating, fascinating young woman. Some of you from Networks might remember her. And her mom, again. You know, I'm a mom.  I'm a I'm a Tutu. I'm a grandma, you know. So I, you know, raise my hand, I'm guilty. But her mom was like, "Oh, we have no idea what she likes." "We have no idea which is likes." "We have no idea what she likes", as the young woman is sitting there with headphones on jamming out to all kinds of different music. And she said like, "She doesn't even listen to one's whole song at a time." Well she was hopping through songs left and right. She was going to YouTube and pulling up songs. She had all this - and when we finally stopped and said, "Let me see what your" - we found out like, all kinds of stuff about what she liked. Clothing, well beyond music. All kinds of stuff we found out ,just by listening to her with our eyes and with different body parts and slowing down. She was telling us loud and clear, loud and clear.

Michelle Sparling  47:44  
Lots of this all comes down to you, gotta listen, right?

Rosa McAllister  47:47  
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Sparling  47:48  
You gotta listen.

Rosa McAllister  47:49  
Alli, you got your hand up? Oh, I'm sorry, Michelle.

Allison Smale  47:52  
So, I was trying to keep my mouth shut too, but I can't seem to do it. So two things. For the, for the individual that doesn't seem to like a lot of screen time, we had last year at the end of the year, as we were ending the school year, we had our Project Search programs that obviously had to leave the host businesses and we're at home. And we were working with a young woman who really hated screentime. Really disliked it. But really enjoyed the process of paperwork, which was one of the reasons she excelled so much at the hospital. So what we did is, we basically created informational packets, which for some people, they might look at it as like busy time work. But we tried to make it, all the work, very situational and would be information that was going to be helping in her job search and what have you. What we did is, we just made up packets and then dropped them off on her doorstep. She would complete them and then we would go and pick them up. So we were basically doing all the activities. She just wasn't doing it in real time with us. She was doing it on our own time. And rather than needing to do it on the screen, she was, she was able to do it in a format that she really liked. So maybe if you can change up the format that might be helpful. The other thing that we utilized is Kahoot, which is a platform that educators use. We used it because it's really easy to make, to kind of gamify things. You can make trivia games really easily. You can make pop quizzes really easily. And we found that this gentleman that we were working with, although he hated to answer questions about himself. He hated to talk about himself. What we learned is that he loved trivia. And if we set it up as a trivia game, like he would answer those questions. Whether it was about himself or if it was about something else in his life, that he would he would do that. So we loved Cahoot for that, and it turned out to be really helpful. Again, I have no idea if either one of those would be helpful for the individuals that you're working with. But we found them helpful. ("Awesome.)

Joe Murphy  49:52  
I love that idea. We use Kahoot for so many different things. I never thought about using an here. I use to, I use Kahoot a lot. And I always say how my kids always use it in high school. I didn't even put it - I'm an idiot now.

Allison Smale  50:05  
No your not! 

Joe Murphy  50:08  
I'm laughing at it! 

Allison Smale  50:09  
That's what your brain's for.

Joe Murphy  50:10  
Awesome idea, Ali. That is so cool.

Rosa McAllister  50:12  
That's the whole point here. Exactly. This is so cool. And I hate to say, but we're out of time. So this is so cool. Thank you so much, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. And I was trying to not to, not to speak up, but anyway. So thank you all for joining in. We're going to be doing this again, December 11. And the topic then again, is about creative funding, finding resources. Maybe not necessarily money, maybe it's just whatever. But thanks. And in the meantime, please know that we're always here. And we're always willing to brainstorm or problem solve or whatever. If we can, if we can do that with you, help. You know, please let us know. Any great ideas and give us updates, please. Thanks so much. Thanks, everybody. Aloha. Bye.

Shauna Roman  51:02  
Thanks, everyone. Have a good weekend.

Outro  51:07  
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