Kayla Concannon (00:16):
Okay. Welcome back to The Lived Expertise is Greater Than Degrees Podcast. I am really lucky today to be chatting with Maisie, and Maisie has a lot of experience in the fields and personal experience to share with us. So, Maisie, will you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Maisie Soetantyo (00:35):
Sure. My name is Maisie Soetantyo and I am a longtime parent coach, specifically for parents raising neurodivergent or autistic kids. I've been doing that for over 30 years, a long time. I am the founder of a nonprofit in San Francisco Bay Area called Autism Career Pathways, which I started in 2019. I decided to start this nonprofit because I watched my autistic clients grow up and they were not able to get a summer job doing something that they're an expert in, you know? So, it just got me thinking, you know, "what's the whole point?" Like I know that my autistic clients, with me and their parents, they've worked so hard to be the best they could be, and it seems like the world is not ready for them. And, at that point I was like, "Okay, I really need to look into this and hopefully be able to make a difference." Personally, I'm a late diagnosed autistic adult, and to me everything has come full circle because I have over five decades of experience as an autistic person, in addition to being a professional serving autistic or neurodivergent people.

Kayla (02:00):
Yeah. I can relate to the late diagnosis part. I was diagnosed with ADHD, which is different, but, um, diagnosed-

Maisie (02:08):
Right.

Kayla (02:09):
... at 25 after doing this work for a couple of years and working with neurodivergent-

Maisie (02:13):
Yeah, there you go.

Kayla (02:14):
... clients. Yeah. And I was like, "Wait a second. I think we relate a little bit more than I previously thought." And-

Maisie (02:23):
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kayla (02:25):
... it's so cool to bring your 50 years of experience to your 30 years of work. I would love to know more about your nonprofit because I mean, employment is just such a barrier to independence that we talk about and all these IEPs and all these goals.

Maisie (02:42):
Well, I think the opportunities for autistic people to get employed is challenging, right? Because the typical verbal job interviews is something that's very, very hard for anybody, but for autistic people, because we, we're not really good at embellishing or sugarcoating things that, we're actually not good at selling what we're good at (laughs). And, as they say, within the first three minutes of a job interview, you know, the hiring manager already knows whether that person is a good fit or not, which is very ableist because they don't presume competence, necessarily, right?

Maisie (03:28):
So, getting a job is difficult because just the entry point and also the types of opportunities that are not created to suit our neurodivergent mind actually. So, that's the, I think, disconnect, right? So I think it's not enough for businesses and companies to have the interest and the desire to really open their doors to neurodivergent employees, but also to change the culture of the company. So it needs to be not enough to be top to bottom for the leaders or the directors to be more inclusive, but also for the ground up, the bottom up, for everyone at the company to really understand and be accountable about how to be more inclusive, themselves. So that's the big problem, and that's really what my nonprofit is trying to solve to redefine meaningful employment, to redefine how we think about being different at workplaces.

Kayla (04:40):
It's great when a organization has some kind of a hiring initiative, like an inclusive hiring initiative, but it only works if the supervisors-

Maisie (04:49):
Yeah.

Kayla (04:49):
... coworkers, customers-

Maisie (04:50):
Yeah.

Kayla (04:50):
... are on board.

Maisie (04:51):
Yeah. It has to be meaningful. And, guess what? There are neurodivergent people working there and do they feel safe working there? Do they feel like, when they struggle, do they have allies at work who can really understand and support them in a compassionate way, instead of being judged? So you start there when you think about, "Do I have a company that really understands how to be inclusive, you know, and how to support each other to thrive and be successful?" Yeah.

Kayla (05:27):
Right. I think one thing that I've noticed, like you were saying, in the first three minutes, an employer decides if they like you-

Maisie (05:33):
Mm-hmm. Right.

Kayla (05:34):
... and I mean, they have to like you-

Maisie (05:35):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (05:35):
... it's subjective, right? The hiring process.

Maisie (05:39):
Right. It's very subjective.

Kayla (05:40):
And early on, even just in the job postings, requiring something like a bachelor's degree, which is required for a lot of entry level positions-

Maisie (05:49):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (05:49):
... at a lot of entry level companies-

Maisie (05:51):
Right.

Kayla (05:51):
... isn't accessible to a lot of folks because academia has so much systematic ableism that even just-

Maisie (05:58):
Absolutely.

Kayla (05:59):
... getting in to college, let alone getting a degree-

Maisie (06:02):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (06:02):
... it keeps people out when they have so much to give.

Maisie (06:05):
Yeah. I think the issue is that everyone, whether when we think about educational system or assessment process or employment training and so on, we're trying to leap based on what we learned in the past. So a lot of our methods and structure and framework, it's really, this is why we're missing out. We're not learning from the past, we don't have any clarity about how to think outside of the box and how to support each other, how to be respectful. So, that's where I think there has to be a better way. (laughs). Yeah.

Kayla (06:49):
Yes. There has to be a better way. And I think the work you're doing is leading us into the better way, and I appreciate the work that you do.

Maisie (06:57):
Oh, thank you.

Kayla (06:57):
I was... Of course. Thank you. I was reading on your website, I believe, that 500,000 autistic young adults are about to age out of services, age out of supports-

Maisie (07:10):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (07:10):
... and kind of be left in the-

Maisie (07:11):
Yes.

Kayla (07:11):
... dust to navigate adulthood.

Maisie (07:14):
Yeah.

Kayla (07:15):
What can we do to help them? What can we do to make it better?

Maisie (07:19):
Well, I think now, with social media and platforms, you know, there's so many autistic voices, right? There're many more autistic professionals like me, sharing their own lived experiences and trying to do better, trying to be good role models for younger autistic kids. And we're working really hard to change the world, change the society so that autistic kids will grow up and have a much better, not just sense of belonging, but they can actually belong, right? So the way to do that, I think for, is for everyone to be accountable so they can be that bridge, right?

Maisie (08:08):
So we need a way that the autistic community, like people like me, as well as the autism community, people who are neurotypical to actually come together and really walk the talk (laughs), right? And not just read a good feel video or read an article about an autistic young man who has learned songs by Elvis and he's now doing his thing, you know, that's a good feel story. But really ask, you know, within my own tiny world or my own habitat, my own dining table, when I sit with my family, "what can I do to really understand and also help people who are near me, people who I see every day, to really learn how to be different together?" So I think the community has to come together. It is not autism-specific, it's just changing our mindset altogether.

Kayla (09:11):
I think that is a very approachable way to make change, is to just look at your immediate surroundings, your immediate circles, build those connections, bridges, make opportunities where you already are, and then kind of hope it spreads. I think you gave a perfect segue into this idea of lived expertise is greater than degrees, of people using their lived experience and sharing on social media.

Maisie (09:38):
Yeah.

Kayla (09:38):
And I've learned so much on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok-

Maisie (09:44):
Yeah.

Kayla (09:44):
... Reddit, from all these neurodivergent creators and-

Maisie (09:48):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (09:49):
... I think that's something that more professionals should be doing, because there's only so much that we can learn from a textbook or a research journal.

Maisie (09:58):
Yeah. Yeah.

Kayla (09:58):
Because it's not really humans, it's stereotypes.

Maisie (10:02):
I think there're two kinds of smart, there is the book smart and street smart, right? So being book smart, I think for, let's just say, if you are an OT student or a young person studying speech therapy field, for example, you're gonna work. The field draws you because obviously you love serving this population, right? And then you go to school, you go through your training, you go through your internship, but that's all book smart, right? You're trying to do the best that you can. You're trying to remember what you've been taught. And it depends on who supervises you, do you have other people to look up to? And so on. But guess what, if you don't challenge yourself to look outside of your circle, you can be living under the wrong rock forever. Forever. And you may have a PhD, you may serve this population and considered the expert, and you might have a long waiting list, and you're still falling short.

Maisie (11:10):
Why do you fall short? Because you tell yourself, "You know, I'm the best. I know enough and I know more than you do," right? And you stick to those boxes that you were trained 20 years ago. That's doing a disservice to actually the people that you serve, the clients you work with, the students you teach, the interns you guide, and so on, right? Because you're in that position where you can change someone's life, and you're not, because it feels more comfortable for you to sit in your chair, and, I didn't wanna do that. I didn't wanna do that. That's why I dump and ditched so many programs and trainings. I would make it all the way up to the top and something would just nag me and I would ditch it. I think that's because I'm autistic. When I feel uncomfortable, when I feel like something doesn't make sense, there has to be better.

Maisie (12:12):
And I have given all of everything, my knowledge, my- the best of my ability to problem solve and I can't solve it, that's not good enough, because I think that the person sitting in front of me or the client I see, there has to be something better, and I want to be an influence and the change agent. In order to do that, I have to become street smart, right? I have to think outside of the box. I can't be working based on my compliance to what I was taught or to what my supervisor expected me to do. I just can't do that, and I think that's the true nature of neurodivergent people. We're very restless. I am the project queen. I mean, that's also my ADHD (laughs), what's next for me? Because I won't settle. Right? I think I digress, but that's okay. (laughs).

Kayla (13:10):
No. I started to write down a couple of notes because you were making such good points that I wanted to circle back to.

Maisie (13:18):
Yeah.

Kayla (13:19):
But when you were talking about grades and internships and degrees, that's all like-

Maisie (13:24):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (13:24):
... quantifiable measures of success, right?

Maisie (13:27):
Yes.

Kayla (13:27):
It's, "I passed this test, I got this fieldwork, I got my license, whatever it is." And then, what do you do with it? And that's something that we need more practice in is like-

Maisie (13:39):
Yeah.

Kayla (13:39):
"... how do I then, this person in front of me and use that power, that privilege, that license-"

Maisie (13:45):
Right.

Kayla (13:46):
"... to help them with their goals?"

Maisie (13:48):
Right. Exactly. I think to be good at your craft is to, of course, be accountable that you don't know everything. And that when you are put in a position to guide someone, right? Whether you are a parent, a teacher, a vocational trainer, or a therapist, you are in that position. What an incredible position that is for you to be a game changer for that person, right? And the way to do that is to learn to invest in them. And those things, those boxes, that you are always tempted to put someone according to those boxes? It doesn't apply. I always say that autistic people are here to unbox all these categories because we just don't fit into these categories, and rightfully so, because we're human beings. It doesn't matter what you training or what you wanna do, you've gotta be street smart, not book smart.

Kayla (14:55):
That unboxing autism. Like what a good metaphor for how do we take, especially with neurodiversity or disability in general, where it does not lean towards any certain, like, demographic criteria and-

Maisie (15:10):
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kayla (15:10):
... neurodivergent [inaudible 00:15:11], more likely to be [inaudible 00:15:13] and exploratory in other ways. And-

Maisie (15:17):
Yeah.

Kayla (15:18):
... I think one thing that you also said that stuck out to me is, jumping from job to industry, like jumping around, because I think there is that restlessness, like you said, and I think in neurodivergent folks also have such a strong value system, moral compass, ethical mind, where we-

Maisie (15:38):
Right.

Kayla (15:38):
... if something isn't going well, we need to find something that... Yeah.

Maisie (15:43):
We question it. Yes.

Kayla (15:44):
Yes.

Maisie (15:45):
Yes. Correct.

Kayla (15:46):
I, I value that so much. That's something that I learned from my first clients, and I learned it probably too thoroughly because I then quit that job (laughs) when-

Maisie (15:57):
Yeah. Yes.

Kayla (15:59):
... I needed, I needed a better system of role models than I had in that organization.

Maisie (16:04):
Yes. Yes.

Kayla (16:05):
And so here we are, podcasting, (laughs).

Maisie (16:10):
(laughs).

Kayla (16:10):
Maisie, another thing that I wanted to ask you about, even though-

Maisie (16:12):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (16:12):
... we're so close to the end of time is, I usually ask people that I'm interviewing for this podcast about something that they learned in school and something that they learned out of school that has-

Maisie (16:23):
Mm-hmm.

Kayla (16:23):
... changed their life. And I know that you originally went to school to be an ABA therapist.

Maisie (16:30):
No. I came across the field of autism through ABA. I was a psychology major and I knew that I wanted to work with kids. And I just happened that I was placed in the classroom for autistic kids. And since now I went to UCLA and most of those kids were under the supervision of the Young Autism Project under Dr. Ivar Lovaas. That's how I came across... Yes. That's how-

Kayla (16:59):
Wow.

Maisie (17:00):
... (laughs) I started. And I think, I had learning disabilities. So I have this copula as well as auditory and sensory processing differences. So I really try to comply. I was really compliant, when it comes to following the formula, when working with my autistic clients. This, I'm talking about 30 plus years ago, because I thought that, that's what I was supposed to be doing, right? But the more I got into it, especially after I started working with kids who were more impacted by their autistic conditions, that's where I had to think differently, that's how I learned how to think outside of the box and problem solve differently because those kids would not really work for according to protocol, right?

Maisie (18:00):
So, that's how I learned to just question everything. There has to be better. All of these repetitions, this wasn't how these kids could learn best, right? So even as I moved my way up to the top to become a clinic supervisor, I just couldn't handle it anymore. Partly because I had major sensory burnout and working longer hours, working with more clients, it just wasn't enough. Because I do see what goes on behind closed door for these autistic kids who were considered successful within the protocol. But when I see them out and about, for example, after school, they were not coming out of their room because they were just so exhausted, because they were masking, they were camouflaging, big time at school, and could pass as neurotypical students, but they were miserable. They had to be something better.

Kayla (19:04):
Yeah. Compliance can only get you so far, right? Just like in school, making the grades and then, what's next? What's the point of all that?

Maisie (19:13):
Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your questions real quick, if you go for changes based on the things your eyes can see, you are doing a disservice to the people you serve because you're not nurturing them, you're not empowering their true self to be the best version they can be. That's what I learned, so.

Kayla (19:40):
I think that is a perfect takeaway lesson for anybody listening here. And I would love to talk to you for all day, I wish we could because there's so many little gems in-

Maisie (19:51):
Yeah.

Kayla (19:52):
... here that we wanna expand on. But 'cause we have a limited amount of time, I will definitely direct people to your website, to your social media. Do you wanna shout anything else out?

Maisie (20:03):
Yes. So, I do my advocacy on Instagram. And for parents of autistic kids and also for therapists, if you want to connect with others and learn in a safe space, that's just my name @maisiesoetantyo. And then for the nonprofit work is @autismcareerpathways on Instagram. And then for sensory inclusive business training, that's @Bettercommunitycertified. That's the program that we launched last year to certify community businesses. So, yeah we have to come together and, and these are all safe spaces.

Kayla (20:44):
Thank you so much for providing those safe spaces, providing all these resources for people and for taking time out of your schedule to talk to me today.

Maisie (20:53):
Of course, of course. My pleasure.