Kayla Concannon (00:16): All right. I am here with Asiatu. Asiatu's pronouns are they/them, and they are a Black, queer, trans, multiply neurodivergent, autistic empowerment coach and educator. They specialize in both intersectionality and the neurologically oppressed. Being multiply marginalized while having been diagnosed with anxiety, depression, ADHD and learning disabilities in childhood, they intimately knew the painful consequence of trying to fit within the neurotypical, oppressive colonized world. In 2009, years after getting their bachelor's of Sociology from Spelman College, they began their coaching career as a relationship coach. Kayla Concannon (00:59): In 2018, they began to tackle systemic oppression while including intersectional education. In May of 2020 they self-diagnosed as autistic, and a few months later, in October, it was medically confirmed. They feel their autism was the missing piece. They perceive being autistic as their greatest strength that is at the root of both who they are and their work of helping others. And I have been following Asiatu on Instagram for two years, and have reposted a lot of their content because I am just a fan of everything that they are willing to teach us, and I'm so glad to have you on the podcast today. Asiatu Lawoyin (01:42): Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Kayla (01:45): Yay. So, we just started off with awesome 15-minute conversation that I wish I had recorded, (laughs) because you were sharing so many gems that I absolutely co-sign, and I wanted to bring it back to some of those pieces because this podcast is called Lived Expertise is Greater than Degrees, and I want to give you this time to share about the things that you've learned about yourself and about the world, especially outside of school and trying to just navigate the world with your different identities. Asiatu (02:26): Wow. (laughs) Well, first I wanna say, I love the title and the concept of this podcast because that's linked to so many things as far as systems of oppression. It... Systems of oppression erode the power of different communities and telling our stories through our lived experiences, specifically, and gatekeeping and creating systems of white insecurity. I purposely don't say white supremacy because there's nothing supreme about it, and that it is rooted in white insecurity that you would have to feel that way to basically create systems that give you false sense of power. So, it's not white supremacy, it's actually, at the root, it's white insecurity. Asiatu (03:12): It's also prevalent in that when white people are held accountable for their anti-Blackness and oppression, it's just constant deflection and ego- egotistical responses. Again, to me, that confirms insecurity. So, and to just systemically deny, basically, anti-Blackness and the treatment of, you know, the Black community, that has to be insecurity because why wouldn't you want someone to be your equal? What about our power and our culture is so threatening? And it also speaks to cultural appropriation in the sense of Black cultural appropriation and that we're always getting our identity, our creativity, our culture, our food, stolen, basically, from white culture. Asiatu (03:58): So, all of that to me just yells and speaks (laughs) insecurity, not supremacy. So, one of those things that systemically occur is that basically you take people's power away from knowing who they are, knowing their culture, and being able to tell our stories, and being able to share our lived experiences. And to be able to hold systems of oppression accountable and people accountable for institutionalized racism. And there's been this shift that we're in the process of, but we're at the very beginnings of for people to realize that... I always say, "Go to the source to learn." If you wanna learn about autistic people, go to autistics. You wanna learn sign language? Go to the Deaf community. If you wanna learn about indigenous culture, go to indigenous people, and so on, and so forth. Asiatu (04:49): I'm like, just like, if you, as say, a woman don't want a whole bunch of men sitting in a room, (laughs) deciding laws that directly affect you, then why would you think that it's okay to do that for other people? Same if you are disabled. You wouldn't want non-disabled people sitting in a room deciding or speaking to your lived experiences because they don't experience it. So it goes back to privilege and power, uh, privilege and the oppressed. And so, until we give back power to communities for us to share and to be involved in how stories, history, education is written for us, things won't shift. So, yeah, I'm a firm believer in, go to the source. If you want to learn about anti-racism or anti-Blackness, go to the Black community. Asiatu (05:38): And I've always, go to the most oppressed of the communities in which you're going to with a- in the intersections of identities because the more oppressed a person is, the more lived experiences we have that others do not. So, the fact that I am multiply oppressed (laughs) is why I'm able to be such an amazing educator in that I check a lot of boxes. (laughs) I check a lot of boxes. I'm even left-handed, on top of everything else. (laughs) So, uh, yeah, trans, queer, Black, autistic, you know, left-handed, and I'm sure there's some others that I'm missing. But I'll also say that there is a... This colonizer mentality is very much either/or, not both/and. I'm very much a both/and person, and humanity, as far as the human behavior being a spectrum, is more so both/and than either/or. Asiatu (06:35): So, with that said, I am both oppressed in a lot of ways and check a lot of boxes, but I'm also privileged in other ways, and I think that people get so caught up in the either/or mentality of that instead of just being open to the idea that, no, it's a spectrum. So, there are very few in this- people in this world this world that's all good or all bad, or all privileged or all oppressed. The majority of people fall within that spectrum. So, yes, in certain aspects I checked boxes for being multiply oppressed, but in other aspects the fact that I have pretty privilege or the fact that I grew up middle-class, or the fact that I graduated from Spelman College, or the fact that my parents were doctors. Asiatu (07:17): So, like, yes, I recognize that I have both privilege and oppression as do most people, so I think that's a very basic (laughs) understanding that people just don't understand, and I think once people realize that, they will hopefully learn not to get so defensive and deflective and be in ego when being held accountable, because privilege equates to not experiencing lived things that other people experience, and not being held accountable. That was really long, but, yeah, there's all that information. (laughs) Kayla (07:49): That's just, wow. What a setup. I would love to talk to you for more than 20 minutes, (laughing) because there is- there is a lot there. But I think it... Yeah, it all just circled right back from insecurity and power and privilege, and how nobody wants to be at the bottom of the perceived social hierarchy, but it's also, we have social hierarchies in place because some people want to be at the top and once they're there they can stay there. Asiatu (08:19): Absolutely. Kayla (08:20): And, and like you said, going straight to the source, something that I've really prioritized in my research is, "nothing about us without us," with the autistic community, and like you said, going to the source, especially the source that has different perspectives and multiple marginalized identities, multiple oppressed identities. Really, I will learn a lot from them, and I have. And you are one of those people, although I didn't have you here because you checked the boxes. I had you here because you are, I think, a natural educator and you always share so much of yourself and your story on social media. And I just think more people need to hear what you have to say, especially these, like, service providers who go in with their textbooks and their research and think that they have all the answers- Asiatu (09:11): Absolutely. Kayla (09:11): ... when in reality that's like an insecurity power play too. Asiatu (09:16): Absolutely. Respectability politics, especially within academia, is rampant, especially within the medical field, is rampant, and the whole idea that education is gatekept and that you have to get to a certain level to even get recognition, or even to be considered a knowledgeable source, and a lot of that is very heavily linked with anti-Blackness and classism. And so, if you have higher education only offered for a large amount of money which poor people don't have access to, and guess who are the most poor, are Brown and Black people, then that means that when we speak up about our lived experiences or when we share or when we have a great deal of knowledge, especially autistically, because information tends to be our love language and we love learning, and so we'll deep dive into things for years and have special interests, and not within the construct of like typical education 'cause the education system is so blatantly ableist amongst other things, we're automatically perceived as, "You don't know what you're talking about." Asiatu (10:25): We're automatically met with deflection, condescension, you know, um, invalidation, et cetera. And it's just really frustrating because it's just like... I always tell people, as far as Blackness goes and the Black community, we have multiple PhDs in Blackness. (laughs) I'm like, the most a white person could ever get, at the most, is maybe a GED, and that's if they do multiple years and decades of learning, because you don't experience it. Like, who are you to tell somebody to speak Asiatu (11:00): ... to somebody else's lived experience. Why not just go to the source? It's very frustrating. And for me, that's something that's very interesting for me because, yes, I am college educated, yes, I went to one of the best historically white colleges and universities ever in the country, Spelman. But at the same time, I'm not one to want to be, like... to want to be complicit in upholding that mentality of, "Okay, well, I have to validate my knowledge by a degree." No. Even without my degree, I would still have a whole lifetime of multiple decades (laughs) of Black experience. Asiatu (11:39): I also was raised in a family that I have a family legacy of educators. My mom's father, my grandfather, was close with Dr. King Jr. And my mom knew him as Uncle Martin growing up because my grandfather was also a reverend. His wife was also a educator and reading specialist. My grandmother was a teacher. And then on my dad's side, his father was a principal and his mom was also a teacher. So I grew up with my mom and I grew up going to marches. I grew up going to the Million Man March and protesting and to different protests. And I even... One point, she went on strike to unionize at one point, and I was out there with her picketing. So, yeah, this is a calling (laughs). It wasn't even a choice. I didn't have a choice. 'Cause I tried running from it for a very, very long time and that did not work (laughs). Asiatu (12:31): So, I don't necessarily believe in destiny, but I do believe that you're heavily influenced by both your genetics and the nature and the nurture of who you're around and, you know, the people that you have examples of, which is why representation is so important because it inspires those who are younger and the younger generation to see people. Not only just have, but to see people that look like them, that speak like them, that have similar backgrounds like them. And it gives them a real concrete example of where to go, who to be, and just to feel good about themselves. Asiatu (13:05): I come from a legacy that even if I hadn't gone to Spelman, I'd be doing this work (laughs). I definitely would 'cause it's in me. It's just something I've always been passionate about and that I've always talked about and that I've always seen the connections and patterns of things on a sociological level, my entire life. Which is why I was always seemed precocious or stereotypically autistic, that I liked hanging around adults more so than kids at times, just because I love knowledge and I love talking about concepts beyond superficial. And that usually only happens, generally, typically, within young adulthood or adulthood. But I was that five-year-old that was (laughs)... that was trying to listen to adult conversations so I could have information and just think about things. So, yeah. Kayla (13:51): Yeah. It's all those both ands. So it's both that you didn't necessarily wanna get into this work, and, you were a natural born into it. Like, it- it's- Asiatu (14:02): Exactly. Kayla (14:03): And it was something that you couldn't really ultimately run from. I'm working on a doctorate in education right now and we have a lot of these types of conversations in my program. And one of the things that I say a lot is, "I'm getting a doctorate degree so that people will respect it when I say, 'Having a doctorate doesn't make me smarter than anyone else.'" And like you said, I have met so many neurodivergent folks who have such great levels of expertise in their subject matter that they have been interested in, that they have studied, that they have researched, that they have traveled to understand and talk to the experts and don't have letters after their name, nobody cares. Asiatu (14:45): [inaudible 00:14:47] Kayla (14:46): And I think that is just such disservice. And I think that's a part of, like, capitalism, right? That- Asiatu (14:51): Absolutely. Kayla (14:51): ... if [inaudible 00:14:52] pay money to get that expertise or they don't have the letters after their names, then it's not employable. So then, it all comes back to money and stuff. Asiatu (15:03): Absolutely. And academia in particular is just... well, academia and the medical field, is so blatantly ableist and autistiphobic. Specifically autistiphobic. So you have all these people who are autistic, quote, unquote, "Experts," who are... who are autism experts, I should say, who aren't autistic. And it's just like, "How are you going to tell me (laughs), an actual autistic, what it's like to be autistic?" Just because... I don't care how much you study from a book, lived experience is so much greater. I always tell people, it's like having an example of, you have two options, to either talk to somebody who has a doctorate in astronautical engineering. Then, you have someone who actually is an astronaut and has been to space multiple times. Who are you going to chose? And I would hope that would be the actual astronaut who could tell you what it's like to have lived experience and been in space, rather than someone who's basically just read a whole bunch of information about it. Asiatu (16:04): And that's basically what I tell people all the time, is just, the communities and lived experiences of communities is equivalent to the astronaut and is equivalent to having multiple PhDs. Because every single day that I've existed in this world, I have been Black. Every single day, I have been perceived as Black. Every single day, I've been perceived as a woman. Every single day, I've been perceived as weird or all the other things that I blanking on as far as, like, the oppression, autistiphobia. And then, you have autism moms also taking up space in the autistic community who feel like they're entitled by proximity. I always tell people, that, to me, is equivalent to a white mother with Black kids. Like, just because you have Black children and you have proximity to Blackness, doesn't mean that you experience it. And that doesn't mean that you have any better understanding of it, necessarily, than other white people. But you definitely don't have a better understanding of it relative to a actual Black person. Point-blank, period. (laughs) So, that's why proximity doesn't give you power. Proximity doesn't give you access. Proximity doesn't erase and/or negate privilege, in no way, shape, or form. Asiatu (17:19): And it's that entitlement that is so classically colonizer. It's that entitlement to spaces where you don't belong. It's that entitlement to show up in Black spaces. It's that entitlement for white educators to speak to anti-racism. It's entitlement, especially in February in the U.S. because it's Black History Month, of white people educating others about Black history. And I actually made a series that I'm gonna post that I haven't on social media yet. We're speaking to that directly because what people don't take the time to pause and think about specifically as it relates to Black history is majority of the Black history that's being shared, especially within Black History Month, is our trauma. Not our joy. Not our culture. Not the things that we created that has been culturally appropriated. No. It's always where we were enslaved or the Civil Rights Movement. Which, yes, need to be discussed, but when it's discussed, the same time, the same topics, the same people every fucking year, that's just trauma, after trauma, after trauma. And it's just Black trauma porn at that point. And it's just re-traumatizing Black people, which is one of the many examples of why people need to stick to what they know. Asiatu (18:34): If you are a white person, instead of taking up space, use your privilege to highlight other Black educators and other Black multiply marginalized people to give us access to tell our own stories, to share our own knowledge, to share our own culture. As opposed to doing it for us and speaking over us. Kayla (18:56): Hell, yeah (laughs). I am a white person, for anybody listening to this podcast. Yeah, I'm a white woman. I'm a redhead. I'm a ginger (laughs). And one of the things that I've been learning as I've grown up is how something that I think you actually have posted about recently, which is how a lot of white people will grab on to different identities that they have. So where I go, "I'm neurodivergent 'cause I have ADHD and I'm bisexual and I'm white," it's, like, trying to give myself a little reassurance that I'm not one of the bad white people. Asiatu (19:30): Yep. Kayla (19:31): But in reality, it's all part of who I am, but by being a white person in a system where I get benefits and I get entitlement, and I don't always have to notice where and when those benefits come in. Asiatu (19:48): Absolutely. You're shielded from it. And that's what I want people to understand. Privilege means that you're shielded from experiences that others have, which means that you're ignorant. Like, they go hand in hand. And that doesn't make you automatically a bad person, but if you're not taking the time to decolonize and deconstruct those biases and that knowledge, then, yes, that's what makes you a bad person (laughs). Quote, unquote, "Bad person". Which I- Kayla (20:14): Yeah. Asiatu (20:14): ... don't even agree. I mean, to me, it's all about harm reduction. What are you doing to decrease harm to others, whether you intend to or not? Again, impact is always greater than intention. It's another metaphor that I always like to use, is if somebody shoots you by accident versus on purpose, it doesn't change the damage. So- Kayla (20:36): Yeah. Asiatu (20:37): ... white people will always be like, especially when being held accountable, "Well, I didn't intend or I didn't mean..." I don't care about your intentions. I honestly don't. Like, they're irrelevant to the impact because the damage is already done. That bullet doesn't know that, "Oh, it was an accident, so I'm gonna cause less damage." (laughs) Like, "No. I still got a bullet in my body and I still gotta deal with that reality and I still gotta recover and I still got medical bills and I still gotta go to the hospital and I still gotta get surgery and I still have to have stitches either way. Either way, whether you intended to or not." And its impact is always greater than intent. Asiatu (21:10): So we have to get out of ego, we have to stop focusing on our wounds, especially white women, stop centering themselves when being held accountable and then apologizing. It's not about you (laughs). It's not about your feelings. It's not prioritizing, "Well, you hurt my feelings too." Yeah, your feelings are hurt because you're being held accountable. My feelings are hurt because what you're doing is actually actively violent towards me. And that's what people don't understand, is that every act of oppression, no matter how passive, no matter how aggressive, no matter how direct, indirect, it's rooted in violence. So just like a woman basically being assaulted, you know, sexually assaulted versus... or let's just say in an abusive relationship versus walking down the street and being catcalled Asiatu (22:00): ... every day. It's the same fucking hurt. It's the same pain. You're causing harm. Like, it's still traumatizing, so it, it's still affecting us every fucking day. It's not a matter of, oh, you were a little raped, versus (laughs) a lot of raped. Like, no. And I say in those terms specifically so that it'll shock people into fucking reality. And in no way am I demeaning or degrading that experience, because I am also a survivor, and have been raped multiple times. That's neither here nor there. Asiatu (22:29): But I will say this, that is how white people sound (laughs) when they talk about people assume microaggressions means that, "oh, it was just a little, it was just a little hurt." Like, asking, you know, me growing up and having white girls always ask me to, to touch my hair. That's not a little hurt. That made me feel so fucking insecure to the fact that I literally had nightmares as a child because of that. And so that's what I want people to understand, that there's no levels to oppression. It's all abusive. It's all violence, and it's all rooted in historical violence, so it's just the apple and the tree. So the tree has been the roots of capitalism, of anti-Blackness, of enslavement, of genocide, of rape, et cetera, and now the systems today are the apples. Kayla (23:18): Wow. That was so many powerful metaphors, from the sexual assault, or the hair touching, or the accidentally shooting someone. It's, like, what happens in the moment, and then it's also what happens afterwards, and how it compounds, and how it stays with you. Asiatu (23:36): Absolutely. Kayla (23:36): Now, Asiatu- Asiatu (23:38): It's all compounded. Absolutely. People don't understand that no, no moment of oppression is isolated. Kayla (23:45): Right. Asiatu (23:46): So, and that's what people need to understand, is that someone asking me now as an adult if they could touch my hair, is going to make me flashback to all of the other times in which I have been disrespected because of my hair, not just for being asked to touch, but basically saying that my hair was unkept, or that my natural hair wasn't good enough, or that, you know, I needed to relax my hair, to straighten it, because then it would look pretty, to all the things to people, to white kids basically saying I had horse hair on my hair when I had braids in my hair, all types of things. Especially being autistic, because we have pattern recognition even more so than the average person, that weight of those connections are even heavier, because I don't have the capacity t- to compartmentalize that most people do, or most neurotypicals do, in the sense that they can just have isolated thoughts. No, my thoughts are always webbed, always interconnected, and always, like, uncontrolled connected. (laughs) And then, if I don't process it and when I'm waking, they just manifest in my dreams. Kayla (24:52): Wow. I really appreciate you bringing all these things up, and taking us with you with your thoughts with this stuff, because this is exactly what I was hoping for with the podcast, that we would be able to shed some light on some stuff that, especially, like, service providers don't know and don't experience. So if we think about the ableism, the classism, the racism in academia, and then who even gets to get the degrees and get the licenses to become something like an OT, or an SLP, or a behaviorist, there's just so many years of reinforced, like, "you are going to help people, and you're gonna spend your career dedicated in service to others." And then, we just don't even realize how lucky we are to even get to that spot, to get the degree, to get the license to practice, and then once we're out there, I know, for me, I had a reality check of like, "Wait, what am I doing here, and what exactly am I supposed to be doing here? What was I taught that I'm supposed to do, and then what does it actually seem like I should be doing?" Asiatu (26:02): Exactly. Kayla (26:02): And it's a really hard line, and like you said, I think before we were recording, we talked a little bit about behaviorism, and compliance, and how it's the opposite of consent, and also how everything in the whole world really is a spectrum of connections. Asiatu (26:21): Yep, absolutely. And I would also say, not only is academia limiting as far as who they'll let in to learn, but academia is also limiting in who gets funded, who gets to be able to do research, who gets access to that research, who gets approved for peer publication, and so on and so forth. So, it's still heavily rooted in white insecurity, even after you get past that certain point, so that it perpetuates and upholds systems of oppression, so you have a whole lot of professionals, medical professionals specifically, that go to school, have an ego (laughs) and also are very ignorant to the lived experiences of people outside of whiteness. And then will have the audacity, or as I say caucasity, to sit up there and have these biases, and to basically gaslight and deflect from their accountability for how they're perpetuating trauma. Asiatu (27:27): And all systems of oppression are linked via behaviorism. At the root of everything within society are two things, are behaviorism and connection, and behaviorism is simply just reward and punishment. It's just systems of reward and punishment. It is not solely, you know, limited to applied behavioral therapy, or analysis therapy, ABA therapy, within autistics, although we definitely get the worst of it. But it's also in schools. It's in homes. It's in, you know, telling a two-year-old "timeout" when he's having a developmental moment. It's punishing them for basically learning, 'cause that's how we learn, is we make mistakes, and especially two-year-olds love pushing boundaries. But yet we're sitting up there telling them from young, "that's not acceptable, you will get punished for being who you are," and then it went f- from basically punishment, which is still common, and we're still struggling even with the basics of "stop spanking kids," where I'm just like, "If you don't wanna be hit, what makes you think that hitting a child with a developing brain is okay?" But that's a whole 'nother story. Asiatu (28:39): But, then people are just like, "Oh, well then reward is okay, so we'll just get rid of the punishment, and we'll just stick with the reward." But no, because reward, especially to children, who naturally fawn, and naturally want to please, and naturally want to feel accepted, and naturally look up to adults where it's a power dynamic, and a power imbalance, to then keep on giving them stuff to make them do what you want them to do and inserting your control over them, that's not consent. If you can understand within the context of sexual abuse, grooming a child, and basically how sexual predators groom children by giving rewards and gifts, then you should be able to take that and connect it to behaviorism, specifically of children, which is rooted in childism. And so, but it's everywhere. Asiatu (29:33): It's even in, as adults, in corporate America, or in most jobs. If you don't do, or say, or act the way that they do, or th- that they want you, especially, like, in sales, if you don't reach their goals, then you're punished, or you're rewarded for being exploitive (laughs) basically, and being capitalistically exploitive, so the more money you bring in, the more money you make. That's a reward. So everything systemically, especially in school, and which is why Black and Brown kids are sent to detention and/or suspended, and/or expelled way more than white kids. It's because they're being punished for being who they are. They're being punished for being reflections of the systems that have taught them that they are less than, that they don't matter, that they will never amount to anything, et cetera. Asiatu (30:24): So kids literally reflect that they've been fed, so if you have a child that is struggling, then you have to stop and assess, it's not the flower that's the problem, it's the soil. It's the environment, 'cause people are just, we're just fucking gardens and plants. When we're watered, and we get enough sunlight, and we're connected with other things, we grow, and we bloom, and we blossom. When we don't have those things, and the soil is bad, we don't have the right surrounding things, we don't have the amount right, we don't have our basic needs met, we don't have basic support, we don't have community, we are disconnected, we're wilted. We don't get enough water, we die out. We're just plants, and that goes back to the second thing, which is connection. Asiatu (31:12): We're all connected. Everything that's living is connected, and the best example of that are bees, and then when there was a threat of them dying, and then realizing if they die, we die, because we don't have food, (laughs) and for humans, to have this hierarchal ideology that we're somehow better than all other living things, or that we're more sentient, or we're more capable, or we're more, just more of everything, is just unrealistic, because, as I was saying earlier before we were recording, the list of animals in which we realize are actually way more quote/unquote "intelligent" than what we gave them credit for is constantly growing. And the reason why I say intelligent, because it's a white colonizer understanding of intelligence, which is very limited and rooted in white insecurity, so it's a certain limited understanding of intelligence, and it often doesn't even include emotional intelligence, or all the other different kinds of intelligences. Asiatu (32:10): It's a very capitalistic intelligence. It's, "okay, what can you learn and do to create so that we can make money" intelligence. And so that's why we miss so much other intelligence, not only within people, but al- within animals, 'cause we're just, have limited the idea of being quote/unquote "smart" within the context of "what can you do for me? How can you make money for me?" And so yeah, we're all connected. The fact that, I know animals dream, and animals have PTSD, and when they're separated from their actual community and their herd, like, they feel very isolated, as do many mammals, as do a lot of other animals (laughs), and it's just, like, I don't understand why we can't have this understanding, this basic understanding that, you know, especially mammals, but even other beings, we're Asiatu (33:00): .... community, social creatures, and if you're a community, social creature, that means that isolation is death. That means lack of basic needs met and being individualized means death, means trauma, means disconnection, and that's what we're finding out and discovering within the fall of capitalism because it's so heavily rooted in individualism is that we need community support to survive and to thrive, and it's not just humans (laughs) and it's not just mammals. We are all interconnected. There are very few things on this earth that exist completely within isolation, because even if you wanna get to the basis of it, reproduction for a lot of things, you wouldn't have, you have things that are in isolation, they still come together to reproduce. So, it's just like, you still have moments of connection on a certain level, and so, we as a society have to realize that about humans is that we are social creatures, we are animals, just like everybody else. We are mammals just like all other mammals, and we need to stop thinking of ourselves as detached from the animal kingdom and better than living beings. It's killing us. It's literally killing us. Kayla (34:15): I think so many of the human rights debates get so convoluted and all these, like, complex, extraneous details that don't really matter, and when you just go, "People are like flowers. We need sunlight- Asiatu (34:28): (laughs) Kayla (34:29): ... we need water, we need good soil, we need each other." Asiatu (34:32): Exactly. Kayla (34:32): It's like, that's it. That's it. Asiatu (34:32): That's it. Kayla (34:35): Can we just support each other a little bit more, have a little bit more kindness, and we all win. Asiatu (34:41): Exactly. I always say "go where you're watered." Kayla (34:44): Yeah. Asiatu (34:44): Go where you're watered. Kayla (34:44): Um- Asiatu (34:45): If you're not being watered, if there are people that make you feel bad or make you feel insecure or don't accept you as your authentic self or don't nurture you or don't celebrate your wins or push you in healthy ways to grow and evolve, those aren't your people. Kayla (34:59): Yeah. Asiatu (35:00): And so, the people that are meant for you or that meant to be in your space or are supposed to be in your garden, per se, are those that water you, and then you all water each other and then you all blossom, and then if you all water and blossom together and take care of the space, then by being supportive of each other, then you don't have space for other things and negativity to grow, like weeds and those things that'll take over the garden. Just be someone's sunlight, man. Just be someone else's sunlight. That's it. That's all that should be, is, like, that should be the meaning of life, is just to be sunlight and to water people. That's it. To me, that's just the easiest way to put it, just be kind. Be kind, be accountable, and accountability is an act of community, which makes it an act of kindness. Asiatu (35:50): Accountability is kindness. You don't need to be defensive. You're not a shit person. We all make mistakes, and the reason why you feel shit when someone holds you accountable, not only is privilege but behaviorism, because your entire life you've been taught that your mistakes makes you bad, that your mistakes make you lesser of a person, that it devalues you, and that's through behaviorism, and until we as a society decide that we gotta deconstruct everything, including behaviorism, it's not gonna shift, but you're not a bad person for making a mistake. We all make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. I'm human. I make mistakes all the fucking time, and you know what? I'm happy and appreciative when those closest to me call me out, because I want to always be evolving and reducing my harm, to the day that I die. I wanna be 80 years old, if I live that long, still learning, still growing, still evolving, still seeing things from different perceptions because nothing is set in stone. The only constant in life is change, only constant. Kayla (36:52): I say that all the time, "the only constant in life is change." I totally agree. Asiatu (37:01): (laughs) Kayla (37:01): Oh, my god. Asiatu (37:01): [inaudible 00:37:02]- Kayla (37:01): I want a little tri- ... Go ahead. Asiatu (37:02): It's the only t- it's one of the few things that I've kept from, like, I was for a long time into metaphysics for a little while, and then I realized, like, yeah, no, it's too toxically positive and white, but (laughs) that was one of the sayings that stuck with me was that "the only constant in life is change," 'cause it's so true. Kayla (37:16): I want a little triangle tattoo to remind me of that because triangles are the strongest shape and ends a lot of, like, scientific equations- Asiatu (37:25): Yep. Kayla (37:26): The triangle, like the delta I think, represents, like, the change in the formula. Asiatu (37:32): Yep. Kayla (37:32): ", not part of this (laughs). Asiatu (37:36): (laughs) Well, I like the- the- "the only constant in life is change," and I also like "going with the current is better than going against it," and so, so much of life, you know, we're fighting change, because in our brains, basically comfort comes from something that we're aware of that we know, something that's familiar. Familiarity is comfort, and that's how we attach to, you know, our family members and things of that nature, but the problem is, familiarity and comfort doesn't always mean healthy. And so, if your environment as a child, if you were a plant and that you grew up amongst the garden that w- had a whole bunch of weeds and that was toxic and abusive and unhealthy, as an adult when you find that, you find comfort in that because it's known, because your brain will always choose the known before it chooses the unknown. The unknown has way too many variables, and so it's up to us to recognize that within ourselves and deconstruct it for harm reduction and t- to be community for others. It's just like, just because it's familiar, just because that's what you were taught, doesn't make it true, doesn't make it healthy. Kayla (38:48): That is so true, and I think your conversation today, I don't even know how they'll trim this down. Asiatu (38:56): (laughs) Kayla (38:56): I don't want them to take anything out of it. It feels like a really good movie that every time you watch it, you get a little something different. I'm like, I need to re-listen to this and- Asiatu (39:04): (laughs) Kayla (39:06): ... and- and get back to everything that you said, and I am gonna pass everybody to your social media. We'll have it in the sh- show notes and everything, 'cause sometimes your social media puts me out of my comfort zone, and the things that you post I'm- Asiatu (39:19): Absolutely. Kayla (39:19): Like, I go on Instagram for a little mindless scrolling and then I come onto your page and I'm like, oh, no (laughs). Asiatu (39:25): (laughs) Kayla (39:28): Something else I have to sit with and, like- Asiatu (39:30): (laughs) Kayla (39:31): ... mull over for the rest of the day, keeps me up at night (laughs). But I- Asiatu (39:35): But if- if people would see that discomfort comes from, again, going back to what I said about familiarity, it doesn't come from somebody else being wrong. It comes from your discomfort and cognitive dissonance basically that someone is challenging what you were taught and your beliefs, which is a beautiful thing because, at least for me, I don't wanna be stagnant and I don't wanna be the fucking problem (laughs), so call me out, make me sit in my discomfort, make me uncomfortable and my, those that are close to me do all the time (laughs) in the best of ways, and that's why I appreciate them so, again, because accountability is community and kindness. Kayla (40:14): Yeah, maybe we can put a metaphor on that, too. Like, sometimes the flowers get a little bit of rain and sometimes it's like a thunderstorm, but they still need the water even if it comes- Asiatu (40:23): Exactly. Kayla (40:23): ... down a little harder than usual (laughs). Asiatu (40:26): Exactly, and that goes to tone policing, which is why, it just makes me so frustrated 'cause I'm like, if you have your foot on my neck and you have me on the ground and I'm basically telling you and cursing you out for having your foot on my neck and you have this expectation that I must change how I'm speaking to you because you don't like it 'cause it's hurting your feelings, you need to sit with that. That sounds like a personal problem. So, stop tone policing autistics and stop tone policing Black people, and definitely stop tone policing Black autistics (laughs). Kayla (41:02): (laughs) Yes. Thank you so much, Asiatu. I think we should wrap it up here, but- Asiatu (41:08): Okay. Kayla (41:09): ... I know we'll send people your way. Is there anywhere that you wanna shout out that people should look for you or find your stuff? Asiatu (41:16): You can find me on IG at asiatu.coach, and you can find me on Facebook, Asiatu, Lawoyin is my last, but you could just search Asiatu, you'll probably see me. My last name's L-A-W-O-Y-I-N. You can always find me at asiatucoach.com. I do have a season 1 and a few episodes of season 2 of a podcast called Audacious Autistics podcast. You can find my accounts on Facebook or social media, but I'm also on YouTube, so the podcast does have either a visual aspect or just a regular podcast on Spotify and other way- places you find. But it's on hiatus I will say, but there's a lot of information in the first season and the first few episodes of the second season, and eventually I got back to it but I got too many other things in the works right now (laughs). Kayla (42:04): Yeah, and well, I appreciate you taking time from all those other projects to chat with me today, and yeah, just thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom, and I can't wait for this to be published so that even I personally can share it with all my friends and colleagues, and also just l- re-listen to it because, uh- Asiatu (42:25): (laughs) Kayla (42:26): ... didn't get it all the first time, and I just can't wait to keep learning from you. Asiatu (42:31): Thank you. Well, I appreciate you having me and I appreciate you challenging fucking fuckery in this world (laughs), and just continuing to highlight s- those of us who, you know, whose voices aren't readily available or heard, so I greatly appreciate the opportunity and the support. Kayla (42:49): Yeah, that's the subtitle. It's Lived Expertise > Degrees, Challenging Fucking Fuckery (laughs). Asiatu (42:53): (laughs) [inaudible 00:42:57]- Kayla (42:57): That's a subtitle. That didn't really get a [inaudible 00:42:59]. Asiatu (42:58): (laughs) Kayla (43:01): (laughs) I love it. Well, thank you. I've gotta stop recording.