Kayla Concannon (00:14):
Okay. So, welcome to this episode of Lived Expertise Is Greater Than Degrees podcast. I am so, so, so excited to have Lyric on this episode. You probably already know Lyric because they are an epic advocate on social media. If you have heard of the Neurodivergent Rebel, you've come to the right place. And if you haven't, you are definitely gonna wanna follow them because they are a fantastic resource. So, Lyric, welcome to the podcast. (laughs)

Lyric Rivera (00:48):
Oh, thank you so much. I am honored to be here. It's so good to be here with you today.

Kayla (00:54):
Oh, yay. Well, I am brand new at podcasting, but I know you've probably been a guest a lot of times.

Lyric (01:02):
A few. Well, yeah, (laughs) but it's okay, you're doing great.

Kayla (01:06):
Well, (laughs)

Lyric (01:07):
I just... I, I wouldn't have known you were new if you hadn't told me.

Kayla (01:09):
(laughs) Well, I, I'm glad, I'm giving off an air of expertise. Um, but actually the whole point of this podcast is to debunk that I have any expertise at all. (laughing) Uh, um-

Lyric (01:24):
I love it. (laughs)

Kayla (01:24):
So, you know, I'm an occupational therapist. I'm working on a doctorate in education. I'm getting those letters after my name. And what I have learned in that process is that credentials definitely do not mean someone is an expert or knowledgeable on any subject at all. And I wanted to know more about you and why you're here and what lived expertise and degrees, uh, might mean to you.

Lyric (01:55):
Oh, my gosh, this is just perfect. Oh, I'm excited. Uh, so, do, uh, yeah. Oh, this is gonna be great. (laughing)

Kayla (02:04):
So, who are you?

Lyric (02:06):
Me?

Kayla (02:06):
Well, let's t-let's start there.

Lyric (02:08):
Yeah. Let's start with that. Okay. My name is Lyric (they/them). I am the Neurodivergent Rebel online, if you've heard of me before. Uh, and I am an autistic adult, but I didn't find out I was autistic until I was 29. I'm also ADHD, but didn't figure that out until my 30s. But ADHD was much less of a shock because people know ADHD. So, my whole life, people have seen me and going, "Oh, you're so ADHD." And so, when I got diagnosed I was like, "Oh, yeah, that's true. Check. Just kind of check mark, make it official."

(02:33):
But the autism because even myself, like before finding out I was autistic, like we don't really understand or know what autism is unless we are e- exposed to it. And even if we're exposed to it, most people are only exposed to maybe one or two autistic people. So, the preconceived idea of what autism is often doesn't fit and so it never would have occurred to me that I was autistic because I didn't have that exposure to autistic people, even though I was definitely struggling with very autistic things, you know, f- from my, you know, entire life. Uh, just finally finding out like, "Oh, you're autistic," it was just like, "Oh, now it makes sense." It's like giving me that language to explain that experience. And that, that's really a big part of who I am is figuring that out when I was 29 and then turning to the internet and going, "What is wrong with the world" and starting that Neurodivergent Rebel blog. And that, that's where I've been for the last six years (laughs) ranting on the internet.

Kayla (03:30):
Oh my gosh, you're... I would... I don't know that I'd call them rant. (laughing) I think they are... they have been so informative to me. I wish I was there six years ago when you started. But definitely over the past several years I've learned so much from you and you were an immediate... like, I can't wait to invite you to the podcast. I'm so glad you said yes. (laughs) Um, I, I think that's so interesting. I have a similar experience of, yeah, that late diagnosis and just going like, "Oh okay, things make sense now." Um, but mine's just ADHD and nobody, nobody (laughs) thought it of me until late. Um, but I'm, I'm, I'm so glad you're here and I think it's really cool that you share your experience with people online because there's definitely a trend now in especially assigned female at birth folks getting those diagnoses later in life.

Lyric (04:25):
Mm-hmm. Most definitely.

Kayla:
Let's... should we just go into these questions? (laughs)

Lyric (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kayla (04:32):
20, 20 minutes will be quick. Um, but I have a couple questions that I'd like to ask all the guests, um, to kind of get your take on things. But one of my first questions is what is the most important thing that you learned in school? And how did you learn this lesson?

Lyric (04:51):
Yeah. So, uh, you know, it's kind of sad 'cause I'm thinking the most important thing I learned in school was probably in elementary school, which means the rest of school from then on was almost an entire waste. (laughing) Like thinking about it 'cause I've learned so much since leaving school, I've learned way more since leaving school. But I think the most important thing I learned in school was context clues just as a concept back in elementary school.

Kayla (05:14):
Hmm.

Lyric (05:15):
Like as a more neurodivergent person, especially with the auditory processing difficulties where, you know, sometimes people sound like the teacher from Charlie Brown when they're talking like that is not an exaggeration or like, I'll hear, you know, only a few words in a sentence. Yeah. Or it's like, I'll hear the completely wrong word and like, I always mishear everything constantly. And so, having context clues to be able to like u- use that skill to, like, figure out what was actually said because sometimes the things I think people said are, like, so wrong, (laughs) so wrong. Uh, so, like, that's just been, like, really helpful to me. But, you know, then after that, it was like, I don't feel like anything else was like so groundbreaking for the next, you know, rest of my school career.

Kayla (05:56):
(laughs) I just know you have a teacher somewhere from your past that follows you and it's, like, "Look at how they turned out and I'm so proud to have taught them," and if they listen to this, those students will be like, "Oh." (laughs)

Lyric (06:10):
Oh my gosh. I don't know. (laughs)

Kayla (06:13):
No, I, but I-

Lyric (06:14):
I think a lot of my teachers, like, I got on their nerves and I was like their troubled child. So, I have a hard time imagining my teachers are, like, proud of me because like I was the child that was like... I am pretty sure I drove, like, my high school math teacher to, like, quitting teaching the next year. (laughing) Like, I, I'm not sure if it wasn't me and one of my friends' faults, and we weren't trying to be difficult, you know, we really like this teacher. (laughs) This is our favorite math teachers. (laughs)

Kayla (06:38):
In nat... naturally. Uh, and sending them into early retirement. (laughs)

Lyric (06:44):
I don't know. I didn't mean to be difficult. I just had... I was... I had to know why about everything. And I, I-

Kayla (06:49):
Well, curious, which I think is a very, a very normal adolescent and (laughs)-

Lyric (06:55):
You know, I'm very demand avoidance. (laughs)

Kayla (06:57):
Oh, my gosh. Well, you know what? I think when you're not learning anything that you think is relevant or interesting or helpful, yeah why, why wouldn't you try to avoid it? I totally agree with that. (laughing) And I think, I think that, hopefully, um, that, that context clues thing has actually... can see how that actually would play a role on a daily basis.

Lyric (07:20):
So beautiful. So beautiful.

Kayla (07:22):
I, I feel like I learned that after those standardized tests.

Lyric (07:26):
Exactly.

Kayla (07:27):
Yeah.

Lyric (07:28):
I was put into a standardized testing, like specials class I had to go to every day and that was part of it, and they were trying-

Kayla (07:35):
Yeah.

Lyric (07:35):
... to teach me phonics, which I... phonics is not my thing. That will never be my thing. That's not how I read. But, you know, it's like I had to learn that and phonics and like all of these, like, things.

Kayla (07:44):
Mm-hmm.

Lyric (07:45):
But, like, actually some of those lessons have kind of been useful, which is kind of funny.

Kayla (07:48):
Oh, great. No, good to know.

Lyric (07:49):
Yeah.

Kayla (07:49):
Oh...

Lyric (07:49):
You know, process of elimination because people are confusing. So I've got to like... like I use that all the time.

Kayla (07:57):
Right. Which one is the more right answer? What's the more, more socially acceptable thing to do here?

Lyric (08:03):
Yeah. (laughs)

Kayla (08:03):
No, that is, that is, that is really interesting, Lyric. I think I would agree with that. I wouldn't have thought of context clues, but I think they've helped me along the way as well. So, a shoutout to-

Lyric (08:12):
It's just something I use like every day. (laughs)

Kayla (08:14):
Yeah. Right. Okay, good. Um, and so, with context clues, you've learned a lot since in school and after school. And I, I did hear you say you've learned most helpful things since leaving school. (laughs) And that is true for me as well. Um, and I'm curious, what is one of the most important things you've learned since school.

Lyric (08:40):
You know, I think the most important thing I've learned since school is that I can teach myself things.

Kayla (08:45):
Mm-hmm.

Lyric (08:45):
Because when I was in school, an undiagnosed autistic ADHD or who is only good at the things that caught their interest in is completely terrible at anything else. Very stereotypically uneven skill sets. I just thought I was a terrible, incapable of learning person by the time I left school because nobody was teaching me the way I learned. And so, I thought I was the problem. I was like, "Oh, I can't learn. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like, not, not smart enough to learn anything." And then as an adult, I started to teach myself things I was interested in because now we're in that YouTube time where anything you wanna learn, you can Google it. You can YouTube it, you can look it up. So, you can teach yourself anything with the internet for free. Just about with some exceptions.

(09:28):
You know, I taught myself really dangerous aerial acrobatic (laughs) silk tricks with YouTube. No, do not try this at home, you know? But, you know, I'm just saying... I, I was like, I can learn anything I want myself and I don't need anyone else. Like I can go look it up and access the information and learn it, study it, and like I can just empower myself. And that felt really good because like that was a mind shift for me from thinking "I'm incapable of anything" to "I can do almost anything." Maybe not anything. I thought I could do anything for a while, that didn't work out really well. That just ended up in me getting really burnt out and really sick.

(10:03):
So-

Kayla (10:03):
Yes.

Lyric (10:04):
... but I can do a lot of things I never thought possible. And so, just learning that I'm capable of teaching myself things that, that, that, that's power.

Kayla (10:14):
That is power. That's like invaluable. I, have you asked-

Lyric (10:17):
Yeah.

Kayla (10:18):
... um, there's a quote like if, if we judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life thinking it, it can't do like, can't do anything.

Lyric (10:27):
That's one of my favorite quotes and I don't know the exact wording of it, but like, I kind of like use that reference a lot because I'm like, "Hey, we're not scolding fish because they can't breathe on land, um, or climb trees and we're not getting mad at dogs because they can't breathe underwater. Like why are we like expecting neurodivergent people to be neurotypical or pretend to be neurotypical or to act-

Kayla (10:46):
I don't-

Lyric (10:47):
... in the neurotypical way. Like we're literally wired differently. It makes no sense. It's completely illogical. (laughs)

Kayla (10:53):
It is completely illogical. And, and just like you were saying, how, um, teaching yourself... you... I, I, I would challenge, you probably can do almost anything. It's the time constraints and the energy levels and stuff. I mean, if you could teach yourself aerial yoga stunts from the internet, I think you are pretty unlimited. (laughs) I haven't tried that. I've taught myself how to, like, properly, um, to cut a pineapple. (laughing)

Lyric (11:20):
Oh, nice.

Kayla (11:21):
That's something I've learned from the internet, but-

Lyric (11:24):
Because I don't even want to cut a pineapple. I'm gonna buy it a precut. (laughs)

Kayla (11:26):
Yeah. You know, it's choosing your battles, right?

Lyric (11:30):
That's right. Yeah.

Kayla (11:31):
But being able to teach yourself is, is huge and also being able to, uh, measure your own value in, in, in a way that fits you is, yeah, it's, it's a mind shift that can give you so much power back.

Lyric (11:46):
Yeah. Well, I, I see my value as if I'm growing and I'm doing better than I was yesterday. Like, that's, that's the only value I want to see. It's like, am I in competition with myself? That, that's it.

Kayla (12:00):
Yeah, I love that. Like a, like a marathon runner. It's just you versus yourself, you know?

Lyric (12:05):
Yeah.

Kayla (12:05):
You just grow and set your own record.

Lyric (12:07):
Exactly. It's got... I got blinders on. I don't got to worry about what anybody else is doing because I spent my whole life comparing myself to neuro typical people and I was constantly running myself into the ground because it was an unfair expectation that I c- I could never reach. It was always just barely out of reach.

Kayla (12:23):
Oh, yeah.

Lyric (12:23):
And so now I'm like, it's just me, I'm doing better than yesterday. That's it.

Kayla (12:27):
Yeah. No, I love that. Especially as we're recording this in, uh, the New Year. I think a lot of like New Year's resolution. New Year, new me. I'm gonna set 250 goals for the next (laughing) 360-

Lyric (12:41):
[inaudible 00:12:42] pick one or two things that are sometimes small, like one year, it was like, I'm gonna start catching myself negative self-talk.

Kayla (12:49):
Ooh.

Lyric (12:50):
And that was like the one thing for the year, or one year, it was-

Kayla (12:53):
You did that in one year?

Lyric (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, I did. And I'm, I'm... I've gotten a lot better at that. The next year, it was like, I'm gonna stop apologizing for things. Like that-

Kayla (13:00):
Yeah.

Lyric (13:00):
... you shouldn't apologize for. You're like, okay, if I step on somebody, say, I'm gonna apologize - I'm not gonna do that - right. (laughs) But like we apologize for existing practically sometimes, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for taking up space" and like-

Kayla (13:13):
Right.

Lyric (13:14):
... we don't need to apologize as often as many of us do. And I was one of those like, "I'm sorry for existing" people.

Kayla (13:22):
No.

Lyric (13:22):
And so I was like, "I need to not," you know, it was like, no, I'm like, "Thank you for your patience. Thank you for waiting. I appreciate," you know, like, thank you for your grace, you know?

Kayla (13:26):
[inaudible 00:13:27]

Lyric (13:27):
And so, it, it, it gave me a lot more thanks to give, too. So it's like that side effect-

Kayla (13:34):
Hmm. Well, I-

Lyric (13:35):
... which gratitude is not one of my things, so. (laughs)

Kayla (13:37):
Gratitude's good. I mean, yeah, when we can get back to like a positive kind of reframe on stuff, it just changes you, you can't beat it. And I, I hope you never apologize for existing again because I'm so glad that you exist.

Lyric (13:49):
Oh, gosh. (laughs)

Kayla (13:49):
[laughter]

Lyric (13:51):
I hope nobody apologizes for existing, well, you know?

Kayla (13:54):
Yeah, of course, I think... y- yeah, that's, that's the big thing that, um, I want to kind of talk about with this podcast is that everybody brings something unique to the table and I believe that pretty much everybody has good intentions. And so, how can we like work together to embrace everyone and welcome everyone and have compassion and, you know, celebrate everyone's individuality along the way.

Lyric (14:22):
I love it. Yes.

Kayla (14:24):
Oh, good.

Lyric (14:25):
I love to see the rest of this podcast. (laughs)

Kayla (14:27):
So, good. No, I, I, I have some awesome guests lined up. I don't know what will work because...

Lyric (14:32):
I know. I can't wait. It's so great.

Kayla (14:34):
But yeah, people that you've recommended, people that I know. I have some really cool, um, different types of people that I know that I've been lucky to come across in life and learn so much from. And so, I just wanna give them a, a chance to share it, and then I can post about it and say, "Look at all these cool people I got to talk to." So, it's definitely selfishly motivated, too. (laughing)

(14:57):
Um, is there anything else that you wanna kind of leave our listeners with? Our listeners are mostly, I think, going to be like occupational therapists, PTs, SLPs, you know, all these sort of service providers who have, uh, been trained to work with clients and to lead clients. And you know, what, what lesson do you want to send them?

Lyric (15:24):
I think the most important thing you can do, especially as a service provider because you've been filled with all of this knowledge and like book, you know, textbook examples of neurodivergent autistic people.

Kayla (15:36):
Mm-hmm.

Lyric (15:38):
But a lot of that's very stereotypical.

Kayla (15:41):
Perfect.

Lyric (15:41):
I almost wouldn't have got asked about getting diagnosed as an autistic person if I had just seen the medical definitions of an autistic experience. But when I went and experienced and listened to and heard firsthand autistic and neurodivergent experiences of what their life was like, then I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is me." But then I would go back to that medical book and I was like, "That's not me." Like, for example, it would describe, like, all of the traits in a bad way and a lot of the traits looking at myself. I don't see them as a good or a bad thing. They're simply part of who I am. So like for example, hyperfocus. Yeah, that can be really destructive. It can take up all my time, it can damage my relationships because I'm focused on something I can't let go. Sometimes it's something completely unproductive, and I can't let it go because my brain just won't stop. It's like an itch. I gotta keep scratching it.

(16:35):
But at the same time it is my biggest, like, maybe weakness, maybe. But it's also my biggest strength because that inability to let stuff go means there's a problem, and problems stand out to me, which is also can be really hard because you're seeing all these problems all the time. That can really be overwhelming. But I see a problem. I can't let it go. Like, or I have a question and the, the word why pops up and I can't let go until I understand why or I solve the problem. And I think that's how problems like that, that are really complex have been solved throughout human history, right? That someone couldn't let go of this problem that everyone else was not worrying about. And the person who couldn't let it go was the one who solved it.

(17:21):
And so, look at people and really, like, take that medical stuff and like, yeah, keep it in mind because it does have a, you know, a place. It, it is useful information but look at the person like it's a human person and listen to their human experience. The really important thing is to meet the individual person where they are because there's not a one-size-fits-all answer for any autistic person. We've all got different life experiences, different strengths, different weaknesses, different challenges, different needs, and different goals and like things we want to do in our lives.

(17:57):
And so, without really understanding the human in front of you, not the label or the diagnosis or anything else, without [inaudible 00:18:06] understanding that human, who, who, who is this person? What is their name? Who are they? What do they love? What makes them happy? What scares them? What really... you know, what is their, their personhood? Like that's where you need to meet your clients and, you know, each and every single autistic neurodivergent [inaudible 00:18:23] person that, that's gonna be unique. It's gonna be an individual. So like, don't forget that when you're looking at all these labels and seeing all of our similarities because we have a lot of similarities because the difference is, is really where our beauty lies.

 Kayla (18:39):
Oh, my gosh, I'm getting misty over here.

Lyric (18:42):
Oh. (laughing)

 Kayla (18:43):
That was such a beautiful description. Um, and I think it's gonna really be, um, a standout part for a lot of listeners to think about. Yeah, we're not... people aren't just their labels and not just that textbook paragraph. It's like, it's a person. They're as complex as you. Everyone has the past, present, future and like, how can we as the service providers, you know, make room for whoever they are and, and see something like hyperfocus as both... the both sometimes that challenge area when you get locked into something and you can't get out and... but also the thing that, you know, is, uh, change making in a lot of ways.

Lyric (19:24):
Yeah.

 Kayla (19:24):
Oh, Lyric, you're awesome. I'm so glad we got to chat.

Lyric (19:28):
Oh, thank you.

 Kayla (19:28):
I wish this episode could be really long. I think [inaudible 00:19:32]

Lyric (19:31):
Well, maybe after you go, go back with some of your other guests, I can come back.

 Kayla (19:36):
Yeah. And, and also, because I know you have so much information online, um, where else can people find you?

Lyric (19:45):
I am very easy to find because I am everywhere. Uh, but the easiest place is my blog, neurodivergentrebel.com because it has all the other links on it. But if you search for Neurodivergent Rebel on any social media platform, for the most part, I'm even on [inaudible 00:20:00] and I have no idea how to use it, but like I'm pretty much everywhere. So, if you search for Neurodivergent Rebel, you're gonna find me.

 Kayla (20:06):
All right. We'll go to the website and we'll figure out all the other links from there. If we see you there, we've come to the right place.

Lyric (20:14):
(laughs) Fun.

 Kayla (20:16):
Thank you so much, Lyric. Um, thank you for sharing your time and your experience with us. And, um, I look forward to following you and seeing everything else that you post and all your projects as time goes on and also your roller skating videos. We really can't get enough of those.

Lyric (20:34):
Oh. (laughs) Yeah, thank you so much. Well, I, I'm gonna be following your podcast because I... I'm excited about some of those guests you've got coming up. I can't wait to, to hear the rest of these episodes. This is gonna be great.

 Kayla (20:46):
Oh, good. Well, I will definitely be posting about it when they come out, probably later in the spring. We're thinking of launching like April, which is, as you probably know-

Lyric (20:55):
Perfect.

 Kayla (20:56):
... Autism Acceptance Month, Occupational Therapy Month, we're keeping busy. So it may... we'll just go with the flow of, uh, those sorts of conversations already.

Lyric (21:07):
We need more good things in April. I love it.

 Kayla (21:10):
Yes. Yes, we do. Uh, I can't wait. (laughs)

Lyric (21:13):
(laughs)

 Kayla (21:13):
Thank you Lyric. I'm gonna stop recording now.

Lyric (21:16):
Thank you. (laughs)