Kayla Concannon (00:12): Welcome back to The Lived Expertise is Greater Than Degrees Podcast. I'm here with Bri Donnelly, my friend and colleague and classmate. Bri does a little bit of everything, and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves and tell you who they are and how we got connected. Go ahead Bri. Bri Donnelly (00:34): Thanks Kayla. Um, so I'm Bri Donnelly, uh. My pronouns are, she, they. Um, I am, like Kayla said, I do a lot of things. I went to school for exercise science, so right now, I'm currently a certified strength and conditioning coach. Um, I'm a private practice personal trainer, I'm a group fitness instructor. Aside from all of that, I do, um, I profess, I teach at West Chester University. (01:00): Um, I, I teach Disability Studies and Exercise Science courses at the university. And along with that, I'm currently in doctoral school with Kayla pursuing my Ed.D doctoral degree in higher education. So right now, I do way too much, looking forward to doing less in the future. (laughs). Kayla (01:20): I'm so glad that you're doing everything that you're doing because you have taught me so much as a classmate and as a friend, and I think one of the things that I would love for you to talk about is how you bring your own lived experience to your disability studies classes, and it's, you are one of, um, my original kind of inspirations for this podcast just talking about how usually these professions don't really train us to go straight to the source. You know, we, we are trained to look at people with different diagnoses from the research, from the textbooks, and I think you really teach your students to meet people where they are at. Bri (02:08): Yeah, uh, absolutely. Um, I want- first of all, thank you so much, you really do me so much more justice than I deserve. Yeah, but thank you so much. Um, I'm honored really. Uh, yeah, I like to teach my disability studies class from a disability, uh, disabled lens. Um, I myself am a person with a disability. (02:27): I'm, I go, I'm visually impaired, but I just call myself blind. Um, so I really like to engage, um, you know, I like to be upfront about that and I like to engage my class in a more like raw experience of like, of, you know, thinking about what it's like being disabled because that's what I live through, uh, every day. And honestly, it was a very eye-opening, ex- experience when I learned about disability studies, um, to begin with. (laughs). (02:56): And I was like, "Wow, I can be empowered and proud of my identity, and also teach it back to people and teach other people to be that this identity which is very much marginalized and stigmatized, uh, to be proud of it and empower it and realize like it's all good." Um, so yeah, I definitely like to teach it from that lens, that disabled lens. (03:19): I have a lot of fun with it. Um, but yeah, I really have learned a ton (laughs) going from this experience of going from textbook to textbook. Um, especially, you know, I took a lot of anatomy, phys courses, cardiac courses, respiratory courses, all these things, special populations courses in my own undergraduate career. (03:43): Um, and you really learn when you go from, you know, learning or education to practice that sometimes, like the textbooks really don't line up with what is actually the reality of the situation. Um, I think the textbooks most importantly leave out a very human side of everything. Um, you know, you can, you can write someone off based on their diagnosis, but until you actually get your hands dirty and get your feet wet and get into the field and talk to individuals with whatever diagnosis they might have, um, that's when you really realize that there is like a whole different world of perspective, um, in terms of, you know, for example, living with a disability, uh, and living with the diagnosis that you just don't get received from maybe sometimes these ins- institutions. (04:39): And hopefully, um, you know, as a part of my dissertation, as a part of my future, I'm able to, uh, provide these new lenses or this side of it so that we can make, uh, better practitioners in the future, better bedside manners is the goal. Kayla Concannon (04:56): Better bedside manners. Yeah, absolutely important. And I, and I, I think it's very interesting how you've taken these courses and now you're teaching these courses and you're bringing your own experience to the table. And I think my first question for you is what is something that, you know, you learned in school that actually has helped you along the way in, in life? Because (laughs) I know that there's lots that we can critique. Um, but what's something that's actually helped you in your journey, in your life, in your career so far? Bri Donnelly (05:32): Yeah. Um, so despite the amount of flaws that we know these institutions and like universities and stuff have, I continue to pay dollars to go back and get my, um, degrees, keep getting degrees, I wanna get my doctoral degree. I love having extra initials behind my name. (05:52): So I really love, um, I love being, I've always loved being a student, being a learner. Um, but it's funny because you take things away from school that aren't like it from your classroom related. So like a lot of the things I took away, um, were like media literacy and searching databases and learning how to be like a proficient learner. (06:16): Learning from a reputable source, being able to like cruise the internet in a way that's safe, and I'm not like looking at sketchy websites or anything like that. Um, I got really good at Googling really is what (laughs) I gotta say. And it's really cool because I get to teach my students how to get really good at Googling. They're like, I, I'm always like, "Oh, you guys don't know how to cruise the internet. I'm gonna help you cruise, we're gonna cruise the internet together." (06:43): So it, it's been really great being able to like pass the knowledge that like, you know, I've learned in school onto my students. Um, and it really just does take practice and like the more education I got, the more I learned to love seeking out information and learning. Kayla Concannon (07:02): Yeah, I think there, we are some of the youngest in our program, in our cohort. so we're probably the, the ones who grew up with the internet. Bri Donnelly (07:13): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (07:13): We've had computers in schools all our lives, and I am appreciative that I have some basic tech skills as well. (laughs). Um, do you think that. Let me think. Well, I guess browsing the internet, right? Like you're teaching your students and trying to figure out if a source is reputable, kind of critiquing it, kind of knowing where you're getting your information, that's, that's something that I think has become really undervalued or invaluable, you know, that we need to teach and continue to learn, is, is this reputable information or is this kind of click bait? Bri Donnelly (07:55): Yeah, it's, uh, really interesting. Um, you know, and I can only be play so much of a role in like starting this process. Um, it's very interesting, uh, being on the other side, like being the instructor as opposed to the student and realizing, um, how much, you know, there's all information all the time from the internet and it's, you know, it's not fair to say that, "Oh, because you don't know how to cruise the internet, you're not a good student." (08:26): It's, it really is like its own language. So it's interesting to be able to, um, teach my students what to look for when looking for a appropriate, reputable source. Um, and try to kind of hopefully, you know, not modify their thinking. I don't wanna change anyone's thoughts. I don't want to, um, you know, whatever they learned from their family, from their K through 12 school. It's not invaluable, but I'm hoping to maybe broaden their horizons and be able to show them, "Hey, like maybe in the future, this is a better option as opposed to this, um, you know, CDC is a better option than you know, um, medline.com." Kayla Concannon (09:11): Oh yeah, especially Googling medical information. We've all been down that rabbit hole of (laughs) fear factor really like all of these mild symptoms are- Bri Donnelly (09:22): I have a toothache. Oh my God, it's cancer. Kayla Concannon (09:26): Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a whirlwind out there. Bri Donnelly (09:29): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (09:29): And being able to suss out what's, what's true and what's not true and what's helpful to us is really invaluable. I'm sure, I'm sure your students are lucky to have you and teaching them about that, especially as it relates to disability studies. Um, so my next question is what is something that you've learned outside of school that has really helped you in your life, your journey, your career? Bri Donnelly (09:59): Yeah, um, one of my favorite things, um, that I, I learned, I learned from a professor, but I learned it from an outside of school context. Um, is the answer to everything in life is it depends. Um, so I really took away a lot from that once I got into from the classroom into practice, um, you know, you learn, you would learn something so much so in the classroom. "Oh, this is the way to handle this situation." And then all of a sudden it, that exact scenario might go, uh, you know, uh, 10, 10 different ways in the, you know, practical standpoint of it. (10:39): So, um, I have learned to be very flexible outside of the classroom. There's a lot of rigidity in terms of scheduling and assignment due dates and all those things inside the classroom. Um, I learned to be flexible with myself, uh, outside of the classroom. Um, you know, so many years of higher education and I give myself due dates in my head. (laughs). (11:00): Um, and I realize I don't have, you don't actually have to do that all the time. Um, so I learned to be flexible. Um, I learned to, uh, be adaptable in a lot of s- scenarios. Um, you know, being able to handle a situation in 10 different ways doesn't mean you didn't do it the right way. It just means you did it a different way. (11:21): Um, in terms of like my own field, I've, I've learned that, you know, I, when I worked as a personal trainer at a, uh, more like big corporate gym. Um, I learned that I not a lot of people know about, um, disability and even small stuff in terms of disability etiquette, um, In terms of just like things that make people, people's lives easier, um, which is people call it accessibility. (11:49): It just feels like it's making my life easier. (laughs). Um, and people don't really know how easy it is to be able to just make a small, simple change to make things, you know, accom- uh, accommodating and universally comfortable for everyone which is, which was super interesting, and I was really fortunate to have the opportunity at this gym to teach my, my coworkers, my colleagues how, how simple it actually is. (12:16): Um, and, you know, being able to give that them that value, that very like valuable information kind of guided me into being like, "Hey, maybe I actually wanna teach this and maybe I actually enjoy like the classroom setting." Because it was really fun and interactive and I, I wanted to keep that momentum going and hopefully bring that to a, you know, younger students and hopefully mold the mind a little earlier in the process. Kayla Concannon (12:42): Yeah. I, I really appreciate that because we, I, I know when I was in school to be an occupational therapist, we talk a lot about accommodations and accessibility and adaptive equipment, augmented communication, you know, all these buzzwords, and most of the time, these things are expensive and stigmatize and hard to, uh, access and, and acquire. (13:09): And like you're saying, sometimes it's just simple things. It's just like taking it back to humanity and, you know, having compassion for each other and thinking about these simpler swaps. How do we make life easier? Bri Donnelly (13:22): Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I feel like that's a big deal. Um, you know, healthcare is not the best in America, unfortunately, um, in the United States and a lot of people who don't have those, you know, privileges like healthcare, um, they can't get like the augmented stuff, they can't get the CCTV, the magnifier, the BrailleNote, whatever you need. It's much more difficult to attain, uh, when things cost thousands and thousands of dollars. (13:52): So I like the simple stuff. Um, (laughs) yeah, I definitely like the simple stuff. Um, and if I, you know, technology is amazing and there's been so many advances, but until that stuff gets cheaper, um, you really just have to bring it down to like bare basics, and maybe if that takes a little more effort on my part, I'm happy to do it if it makes someone's life more comfortable and, and them more comfortable, um, you know, being able to do things for their future, like be independent and advocate. Um, that's all what I'm all about. Kayla Concannon (14:23): Yeah. That, that is awesome. I think, um, and I hear you talking about kind of using your privileges to, to make things easier for other people. And that's something I think e- that is such a topic these days is how can we help each other out and how can we use our power, our privilege to make the world a kinder place. And I think that that is something we, we are all working on and I, I'm sure there's, it's one thing for your students to be taught that in your class, but then another thing for them to see you role modeling it and actually living it out and making it happen. I think that's so cool. Bri Donnelly (15:05): Yeah. Um, to add on to that, I just, I, I definitely come from a perspective of, you know, when I was a blind little kid, I didn't really have any role models like would I have Helen Keller? She was from like the 1950s, like, like I didn't have anything to really go off of, um, in terms of my own empowerment and seeing role models in your life's, uh, in your life. (15:28): And I, uh, made a decision early on in like my college career that I wanted to hopefully empower other, maybe possib- potentially younger people, um, whether they have a disability or not to kind of reframe their mind into how this identity can be shifted and how this narrative can be, everything's a narrative nowadays, but how this narrative can be shifted, um, to a more empowering lens. Um, and, you know, hopefully if I could do it, one student out of a class of 30, that's one more person making the world a, a little bit of a better place at a time. Um, then I'm happy, that's the goal. Kayla Concannon (16:09): You are absolutely doing that for more than one in 30, but I think (laughs). Bri Donnelly (16:14): Maybe like three. (laughs). Kayla Concannon (16:17): One out of 10. But you know, if, if at least one in five people has a disability or will become disabled, you know, that, that you're making a difference for them while they're becoming adults, and it's going to make a difference for them as they move throughout the world and as they might become parents or might have, uh, access to younger folks in their careers. And I think that's (laughs), you know, bringing it back to you learning how to use the internet. It's like now, you can access more than just Helen Keller. Bri Donnelly (16:50): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (16:50): We, we can find other people that share experiences with us and that camaraderie makes us feel more normal and learn from each other. That's, that's so cool. Helen Keller is, uh, quite a role model, but not, not the only option, I guess. (laughs). Bri Donnelly (17:09): Hey, she got her thing done, but we need, we need more, we need, we need more role models and that's, that's the goal. I, I don't want everyone to be like blind person. "Oh, Helen Keller." Like that's it. I don't want more people. Kayla Concannon (17:24): No. (laughs). Exactly. Exactly. And it's like especially now with social media, I follow like all these, um, you know, blind athletes and influencers and people just showing their life hacks and this app that helps them and how you can skateboard with a cane and, and all these cool things- Bri Donnelly (17:41): You don't know, you don't, sorry. You don't know how many times I've written a literal love letter to people who have been like, "Hey, I downloaded Be My Eyes." Like the app where you get to help someone with a visual impairment and like, and literally you've, you might get a call once every two years because they're, you know, people don't always need help all the time, but like the fact that you met, might be that like two second help for someone, assistance for someone just, it makes a whole difference. So I always encourage everyone to download it no matter what. One day, you never know. Like family, friends, loved one, loved ones might need it, so. Kayla Concannon (18:19): Yeah. That's so easy. You just answered the call when somebody says, "Hey, I need some help." And you can help determine, is that black beans or pinto beans in the- Bri Donnelly (18:28): (laughs). Exactly. It's like, "Hey, is this ketchup or mustard? Mustard? Okay, thanks. Bye." (laughs). Kayla Concannon (18:34): (laughs). It, it will make or break dinner time. Bri Donnelly (18:36): Yes. Kayla Concannon (18:36): It's good to know. (laughs). Bri, you are so awesome. I'm so glad we have this chat. I know that you have so much more to share. Is there anywhere that people can find you or contact you or, you know, any resources that you wanna share? Bri Donnelly (18:54): Yeah. Um, I have my social media account. Um, I use, uh, my, uh, Twitter account is I should, I should honestly share it with you. It's blindside strength, but it's a little abbreviated Kayla. Um, so I'll share that with you, um, that way you have that. Um, otherwise I have my Instagram account, um, Bri Donnellyy with two Y's in my Instagram. Um, and attached to that account is also my, my personal kind of lifting account, uh, for blindside strength which is my private practice, uh, personal training kind of thing. So, um, I have a couple different things, I, I'll definitely share them with you Kayla. Kayla Concannon (19:34): Yes, I'll pass the, I don't really know how it works, but I, I, as the podcasters say, "We'll put it in the show notes." (laughs). Bri Donnelly (19:42): Put it in the show notes. (laughs). Yeah. It will be in the description. Kayla Concannon (19:45): Yeah. I know I have learned quite some things from your blindside strength account with, um, just like safe lifting form, weightlifting. You're doing these CrossFit workouts, you're throwing the pounds around, and it is impressive. You are really strong. (laughs). Bri Donnelly (20:03): Oh, thank you. It, I, it keeps me sane most of all. (laughs). Kayla Concannon (20:07): Physical health and mental health, they go together. Bri Donnelly (20:09): Exactly. Kayla Concannon (20:10): All right. I think that's pretty much it for me. Do you have any takeaways? Any, any final lessons for our listeners in related to lived expertise is greater than degrees? Bri Donnelly (20:22): Um, I would say my biggest takeaway is like, never, never be afraid to ask questions. I think if you're asking questions, um, that means you're curious and, you know, it's, there's nothing wrong with questioning things even if everybody believes it. Um, you know, it's always interesting to be able to seek information out for yourself. (20:46): Um, you can also really, I think the most I've learned from, you know, the most information I have, I've learned from people. Um, so it's always great to be able to like, ask questions and be just a, just a forever student whether it's inside or outside the classroom. Um, yeah, I wanna say thank you Kayla for having me on. This was so fun. I always love chatting with you. Kayla Concannon (21:11): Oh my gosh. I know. I'm so glad our semester's kicking back up. And we can, and we can have our, our weekly chats again. But thank you Bri. I love that asking, ask, don't assume. It's, it's good. Keep that open mind and I appreciate you chatting with me today on recording for other people to learn from you. Bri Donnelly (21:33): Thank you. I'm honored.