Kayla Concannon (00:12):
Okay. Hello, and welcome back to the Lived Expertise is Greater Than Degrees podcast. I am Kayla, I'm a neurodivergent occupational therapist. And I am very lucky to be chatting today with Robert, who... I had the, um, opportunity to listen to your keynote, Robert, um, at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia's, I think 44th Annual Conference on Disability?

Robert Schmus (00:45):
Yup.

Kayla (00:46):
Yes. And I, I remember, um, sitting in the audience, listening to your keynote, hearing about your work, your life, your marriage, and just knowing that I wanted to invite you onto this podcast to share about all, all that you want to share about today. Because I think you are, um, somebody that already has that public speaking experience, but has a lot of lived expertise to share.

Robert (01:16):
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me.

Kayla (01:19):
Oh, of course. Of course. I'm glad we were able to schedule this. So, um, Robert, would you like to introduce yourself? Share anything that you'd like to?

Robert (01:29):
Yes. My name is Robert Schmus. I'm 33 years old. I'm a licensed therapist, and I have ex-, more than six exper-, years experience working with, um, au- neurodivergent adolescents and adults. I am also an autistic self-advocate, and I also do public speakings regarding living autistic as well as topics that affect the autis- autism community, you know, such as masking, employment, and living independently.

Kayla (02:06):
That is awesome, Robert, and I, I hope we can get to some of those topics today, to give just a brief overview in the limited time that we have. But at the end though, we'll definitely ask where people can find you on the internet, on social media, how they can book you to, um, share more about those topics an- and to reach a wider audience with your messages.

Robert (02:32):
That sounds great.

Kayla (02:32):
Okay. Good. So today, um... This podcast, I kind of started because as an occupational therapist and, um, being trained in school to be the so-called "expert" when working with all sorts of clients, I realized that my neurodivergent friends, and colleagues, and clients really didn't fit what the textbooks and the research told me, and when I started to get to know people for who they were, I learned a lot more than I learned in school, (laughs) I will say.

Robert (03:09):
(laughs)

Kayla (03:09):
And, um, I wanted to start this podcast to have a platform for people to share, um, some things that they learned in school that have helped them, and also some things that they've learned outside of school that have made a difference in their life, in their career, in their work. And so my first question for you, is, um, what is something that you learned at some point in your education, in school, that has helped you in your life?

Robert (03:41):
Well, that's a very good question, 'cause there's always (clears throat) things that we've learned in life, whether... Like we, the typical things we learn in school, which is things such as, uh, know how to do this and how to do that. However for me, it's always been the outside experiences. For example, like I've learned a lot of things, um, from family members, like my two grandmothers, my parents. I've also learned things from many friends and people who I went to school with, and also out in the community.

(04:20):
Like I was able t-, I've been learning of different perspectives from, from those who I met. Like I have a friend, she... A friend who I know, she has lived an in-, a very interesting life, and you know, I was able to learn a lot from her. And I was also able to learn a lot from people who I've come across, like whether that be humility, or hap-, or happiness, or finding what you need in life.

Kayla (04:49):
So you've, you've found all sorts of people to be your teachers?

Robert (04:54):
Of course. The w-... Definitely. The way I see it is that if you were to fi-, to go out into the world and with no, no, um, recent knowledge, and you were, and your job was, uh, to speak with somebody, you'll find out that, that people have more stories than you think they have, if that makes any sense.

Kayla (05:20):
That's exactly what (laughs) this podcast is about. You, you are giving me the perfect segues (laughs).

Robert (05:25):
(laughs)

Kayla (05:27):
Um, yeah, I think everybody has stuff to share. And, I think you as, you know, a licensed counselor, you're... Did you say licensed counselor? Licensed therapist?

Robert (05:39):
Yep, I'm an LCS-... Yep, I'm an LCSW.

Kayla (05:43):
LCSW, so Licensed Clinical Social Worker. So, you have those letters after your name, I have some letters after my name as a occupational therapist. And, pretty much I started this podcast to say, "you don't need letters after your name to be intelligent, to have meaning that you can share with the world, and to have things to teach."

Robert (06:08):
Right, that's all, what I've always believed. Because, you know, you can ha-... Like the, many of the people who I met in life, like a lot of them had just high school, high school education. A lot of people who I've kn- learned from had like a high school education or bas-, or a ba- bachelor's education. Like, it doesn't matter where you go, it matters how you utilize your life, and what you put forth.

Kayla (06:37):
Yeah, that's, that's exactly it. You've, you've got this one life, so how, how can you make the most of it?

Robert (06:44):
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Kayla (06:47):
So, can I ask, what led you into working with neurodivergent adolescents?

Robert (06:56):
Well, it all started when I f- found out I was neurodivergent. Like, when I was (clears throat) growing up, before I was diagnosed... You know, I always knew that there was something different about me. You know, I c-, I perceived things differently. I, I had difficulty with certain social cues. I never rea-... I always felt, you know, different. But, and, you know, I always did things such as stimming and, you know, have been always told that, you know, "Stop doing that. Stop stimming. Stop licking," or things like that. But I didn't see anything wrong with it.

(07:32):
A- and, you know, then like, as I went through high school, my anxiety when, of not coping with a lot of things, like it got wor- worse and worse until I had to be hospitalized in a psychiatric ward on President's Day weekend, 2005. And it was at that time that I was... You know, from the psychologist there, that I was diagnosed with... Well, now it's autism, but back then, it was Asperger's. I'm, I see myself as autistic than As- Asperger's.

(08:10):
And when I found out about au-, what autism is and, and neur-, and... Well, there wasn't really a word for neurodiversity back in 2005, but what I would say, neurodiversity, when I read into it, it's like, "Oh my God. Everything makes..." Pardon my French. "Everything makes fucking sense (laughs)."

(08:32):
'Cause at that time, it's just, everything makes... Like th-, you know, the what, the characteristics. And that everything, not only characteristics, it was all coming to me. And then not only that, but... Not only that I found out what it, what I have, I was not the only one. Knowing that was powerful, that I was not the only one.

Kayla (09:04):
I think that's invaluable, right? Nobody wants to feel so different, so... Uh, like it's, it's lonely to, to not understand yourself.

Robert (09:14):
Absolutely. And you know, when you fee-, when you feel lon- lonely, you feel like, you know, like "you're the only one who does this, the only one who does this." You know, like when it comes to like... Yes, there's the individuality, which is great. It's perfect, it, um... It is important to be individual self, but when you're trying to find yourself and you ha-, and you have these characteristics, and you want to say... You know, when you feel like you, there's no one like you, like you, there's no like, someone who can... Not not fully understand, but empathize to a greater degree, it can be lonely.

Kayla (09:53):
I, I'm, I'm sure that that President's Day weekend almost 20 years ago was not the best time for you, but, uh, it sounds like it has led to some, some clarity and some understanding.

Robert (10:08):
Oh, absolutely, which is a lot of clarity. And like I said, you know, not only know what, what I, what I am, it was, but also that I'm not the only one. Like, knowing what I am is important. Knowing, like, how I, and how I, how I contribute to this world and, and what's my purpose, you know? That was a stepping stone towards that.

Kayla (10:38):
That, that is a good way to look at it. I feel like, um, my, my l- l- lead into my work is a little bit different, is basically I've always gravitated towards neurodivergent folks and thought it would be a great setting for me to work. And then I realized at 25 that I had ADHD. And it's different, um, but it's, it's something I wouldn't have realized if I didn't have so many neurodivergent friends, and colleagues, and clients.

(11:08):
And I d-, I don't like putting people into boxes or sticking people with labels, but sometimes those labels are a tool that we can then use to learn more about ourselves along the way.

Robert (11:22):
Yeah, 'cause, you know, if you're... Like yes, we've all heard like, "Oh, like, let's not label ourselves, label ourselves." But the thing is, like, how do you label yourself? Like, if you're labeled... Like yes, like no one wants to be labeled as like, a stereotype, no matter what, what stereotype that is, but to label yours-, to know that you are an autistic and a neurodivergent, that makes you know that you exist.

Kayla (11:54):
Yeah. I've, and, and so, you've kind of... You had that, you know, major setback, or major challenging time in your life, got your diagnosis, and tw-, almost twenty years later now, you've been doing this work. And, and do you feel that being autistic and being neurodivergent is helpful in your work?

Robert (12:22):
I think it's, it's been very helpful, because you know, one of the things that I do is I... As a, as a licensed therapist, I incor-, I have a counseling role when working with neurodiverg- vergent clients. And a lot of these clients, they g- g-... Every one of them is different. Like that's something you, that's, I need, I cannot stress any more, is when you see an au-, a neurodivergent, if you met an au-, a neurodivergent person... You've met a neurodivergent person. Everyone is different, in that sense, characteristics and all.

(12:58):
Um, but, uh, you know, some neurodivergents have similar, or ha-, have similar, um, issues, similar things they struggle with, and that's... And the u-, and the clients I've worked with are no different. Like there are clients in there who have difficulty with coping with anxiety, coping with stress, and those are things that I struggled with growing up. And I can... And one of the things I can definitely do is really kind of put myself in their shoes, and see, "Okay, what... Okay, they're going thru such and such, why don't I show them kind of the strategies that I've been taught by therapists when I was there age?" Because I-

Kayla (13:47):
Yeah, and I, I think you-... Oh, (laughs). Go ahead (laughs).

Robert (13:52):
(laughs) Okay. It's okay. Uh, just using that empath- empathy based on, you know, what, where you came from.

Kayla (13:57):
A- and I think that you have that lived experience and I, I'm, I'm sure... I mean, probably their parents or caregivers, uh, probably look at that, look at you like a role model. Like, "Look, Robert's made it. Robert has this career and this life, and it's, it's so good to see, um, you know, a mentor in that way, in you."

Robert (14:20):
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Kayla (14:24):
So, let me bring it back to this idea, lived expertise is greater than degrees. So, you have a degree. Your degree got you in the door, got you this, this career, this job. And, what is something that you think maybe other LCSWs, OTs, speech, um... Even as far as l-, you know, the different behaviorists, what's something that they should know about working with neurodivergent clients that they're not learning in school?

Robert (15:00):
Um, well, I think one of the things that for many years has been an issue, is that they, there hasn't been any... Like, we don't... We haven't heard much representation of au-, of coun-, from counselors who are neurodivergent. Like, who are in that field. Like, for many years... Like there's, we've h- always had the research. We've always had the, the speakers, the, the, the so-called experts. But, but only until recently, only until recently, have we heard from the neurodivergents themselves, especially neurodivergents who are in the mental health field and who've had that unique experience.

(15:54):
And you know, uh, like, and me, like I, like, I'm a neurodivergent. I've lived that life. I'm still living that life, and I'm using my unique experience to help others. But I never see myself as, as an expert. I'm not, I'm not a damn expert (laughs). Pardon my French again. But, um, I am an avid learner. Like, every day I learn. I think that's also ano-, one other thing you have, I think the worl-, the field needs to understand. Is like, you know, we're learning about the world ourselves, and for us to learn we have to listen. And who do we l-, we have to listen to? The neurodivergent community.

Kayla (16:44):
I'm, I am with you on that, Robert. The, the, the hashtag #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs,-

(16:50):
Mm-hmm.

(16:53):
... kind of the, that idea that, you know, everyone deserves to be part of the decisions that are made about them, and that's not really seen in the textbooks, in the research, in the classrooms, in the fields, until recently. Um, so I totally agree with you there.

(17:11):
And, and that lifelong learning idea, that it's, you know, not just when you're done with school or getting that continuing education credits, but where else are you learning? With conversations, podcasts, YouTube, social media. I learn so much on Instagram, it's, (laughs) it surprises me every day.

Robert (17:31):
Yeah, absolutely (laughs). Like, you, you have, you learn a lot from like, ani-, an-, from that. From like, even social media, like, which, you know, social media can a-, can also be a double-ended sword, but, you know, w- we're hearing the voices. And that's what we're starting to do, we're starting to hear the voices from the neurodivergent community. We, like from, from different points of views in the neurodivergent community. And, and even from people of color within the neurodivergent community. We're hearing so much from it, and it's getting, and it's gonna get bigger and bigger, I honestly feel, if we just continue to speak out.

Kayla (18:15):
I am looking forward to that, you know, that intersectional neurodiversity. Um, for people that are listening that like your voice and like what you have to say, where can they find you, and, uh, learn more about you, and book you for other advocacy opportunities?

Robert (18:36):
Oh. Well, there's a... I actually ha-... There's a number of, um, um, ways they can, um, contact me. First is through my LinkedIn profile. Um, and that LinkedIn profile is under Robert, last name, S-C-H-M, as in Mary, U-S, as in Sam. And I have... af- after that, I have A and U. And M-S-W, L-C-S-W.

(19:14):
Another way I can be conta-, another way I can be contacted is through... I have a Speak- SpeakerHub page. And you just write in that name, Robert, um, Schmus, S-C-H-M, as in Mary, U-S@www.SpeakerHub.com. And just put that name in, into the search engine there.

(19:41):
Um, I can be reached also via email, which is all lowercase, S-C-H-M, as in Mary, U-S, as in Sam, the numbers 8-9-8, @gmail.com.

(19:57):
And another way I can be reached is, is also through, um, this website, website that I have my, uh, I... Another s-, a fr-... My friend and fellow s- autistic self-advocate, Nick St. Clair, him and I came u-, have done virtual talks on various subjects... Such as autism and self-advocacy, and, you know, how, you know, masking, as well as how the s-, how, how, how to cope during the pandemic as a n-, as a neurodivergent person. And so, we offer services like that, through our website. And that website is www... dot, once again, my last name, S-C-H-M, as in Mary, U-S, as in Sam, and then S-T-C-L-A-I-R.com.

(21:02):
So, those are, are some ways to contact me.

Kayla (21:07):
I will be sure to put all of those contact methods linked in. The show notes... That's what the podcasters say, I don't know how to do that yet, but (laughs) I will figure it out so people can find you, and when we post on social media, we'll also have it in the captions so people can find you. Because like you said, we have to talk more about this, and, um, it's growing, and things are changing through the pandemic, but we need to unmask, we need to increase employment, and we just, you know, need to be kind to each other.

Robert (21:42):
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Kayla (21:48):
Thank you so much, Robert. Do you have any final words, or should we say goodbye to the people (laughs)?

Robert (21:54):
Um, hmm. I guess a final word that I can say is, you know, keep living your life, live it to the fullest, make your voice heard no matter what, and give them hell.

Kayla (22:11):
I love it. You're sending people off with, you know, ready to take on the world (laughs).

Robert (22:17):
(laughs)

Kayla (22:18):
Thank you so much, Robert. It was awesome talking to you.

Robert (22:22):
Well, thank you so very much for having me. It was a pleasure being on.