Kayla Concannon (00:14): We are here on the Lived Expertise is Greater Than Degrees podcast. I have two awesome guests today named Jacklyn and Greg. And I'm really excited for the conversation that we are about to have. Um, Jacklyn and Greg, do you want to introduce yourselves? Jacklyn Boheler (00:31): Sure. So my name is Jacklyn Boheler. I am an occupational therapist. I also identify as neurodivergent, um. I am the co-founder and executive director of B3 Coffee, which is a nonprofit organization based in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, which is where we live. And I also serve as project coordinator of a grant-funded project, um, funded by the administration on community living. Uh, it was awarded to UNC Chapel Hill and its focus is on systems change for the transition to adulthood for folks with IDD. So, broadly my work focuses on occupational justice and promoting community integration and belonging. Greg Boheler (01:18): Cool. And I'm Greg Boheler. You may have noticed our names, our, our last name is the same. We're married, um. I'm also an OT in that same community-based practice type of setting. Um, I'm co-founder of B3 Coffee as well, and then my 9:00-5:00, but not really 9:00-5:00 is, um, as a transition facilitator in a high school, the local high school. So while Jaclyn works on more a micro- or macro-level, I'm working on more of a micro-level. And my job really with that is to identify areas of, of growth and area- and goal areas for high schoolers with disabilities as they graduate, and then to work on those. Greg Boheler (02:00): So it could ... My day could be anything from, um, working on budgeting or a resume to gardening or like cooking a meal. As long as it's related to life after, um, high school, that transition to adulthood. Kayla Concannon (02:17): So you two are both occupational therapists focusing on getting back to occupation and living life. And I think it's so interesting that you are married co-founders of a business and then working outside of your business, um, B3, as kind of the before and after part of high school and then college. That's a lot of interesting components to juggle in a week. Jacklyn Boheler (02:46): Yes. We definitely feel like we see systemic issues from all different angles (laughs). I think as Greg mentioned, he's in more direct interaction with individuals and their families, whereas I am learning about policies and funding streams that impact, um, people with IDD and their families. And how to navigate through those complexities, um. The adult services tend to be very disjointed whereas the school system, you know, has its own problems but everything is centralized and you get, you are entitled to a pre and appropriate education and you have an IEP and a team, um, and things get very different and very muddy exiting the school system, um. And in many ways B3 is, is trying to combat some of those issues as well. Greg Boheler (03:41): We're also- Kayla Concannon (03:41): I- Greg Boheler (03:41): ... both autistic. I don't know if we mentioned that yet, so. Kayla Concannon (03:44): Yeah, oh yeah. I think, I think Jacklyn said neurodivergent and- Greg Boheler (03:50): Oh. Kayla Concannon (03:50): You're v- Greg Boheler (03:53): Whoops, I gave it away though. Kayla Concannon (03:53): (laughs). Jacklyn Boheler (03:53): It's ... I, I, I fluctuate between terms (laughs) so. Kayla Concannon (03:57): And, and we'll probably fluctuate through terms throughout like life as- Jacklyn Boheler (04:00): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (04:01): ... different things kind of, as different descriptors come in and feel good. Um. Jacklyn Boheler (04:05): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (04:06): But so you two are like the ultimate degrees and lived expertise, both in your personal lives like who you are, and then also how you're trying to empower all these individuals in your community and in your schools. I would love to hear more about the model for B3, for people who are l- listening that don't know what your business is. Jacklyn Boheler (04:31): Yes. This is one of my favorite scripts (laughs) um. Greg Boheler (04:33): Do I get to do the four things or are you gonna do that? Jacklyn Boheler (04:38): You can do the prongs. I'll just- Greg Boheler (04:40): All right. You introduce, I'll follow. Jacklyn Boheler (04:43): So, B3 is a nonprofit that essentially uses coffee to bring people together and create inclusive community. So I'll go into a little bit of the backstory, um, just 'cause I think it provides some context for the way we operate today. But I was an undergrad at UNC Chapel Hill, and I was a Starbucks barista and that was like the best job ever. I'm so glad my mom bribed me with free coffee to go apply (laughs) for a job at Starbucks, 'cause it was, uh, very difficult for me to make friends as a neurodivergent person and like find a social circle and working at a coffee shop really gave me the structure that I needed to have meaningful relationships with my peers. Jacklyn Boheler (05:33): And I also felt like it really exposed me to people that I would not have otherwise interacted with. And I was also at the time involved in a club called Best Buddies which is a student organization on campus. This is actually a national organization, so, um, your listeners might be familiar. But they pair, um, folks in one-to-one friendships with people with disabilities. It's definitely more of a charity mindset. There's not a lot of allyship training involved, not to bash on the organization. I think, you know, overall it's a starting point for people to, uh, interact with disability community. Jacklyn Boheler (06:14): But I thought we could go beyond that, um, and create community a little bit more organically. And that also in- involved some work on the part of non-disabled people to really listen and learn from lived experience, and to really dismantle that charity mindset that we often see. And again, no hate, like that is definitely where I started as well. And that's where many people start in their allyship journey, but the important thing is that we ste- take steps beyond that to really delve deeper into what disability justice means. Jacklyn Boheler (06:50): So, with that said, we ended up starting B3 in partnership with Best Buddies and it was just a small little popup coffee stand operation on campus. We could go to different special events and then COVID happened, and then we started an online community and we also got our nonprofit status in 2020, so that was right before the pandemic hit. And, um, let's see, yeah, we branched off and became our own nonprofit organization, kind of cut ties with Best Buddies, and since then B3 really has become this multidimensional organization which Greg will go into the different prongs. Jacklyn Boheler (07:35): But, um, I would say what really makes us distinct from a lot of the quote-unquote "inclusive" coffee shops that you see is our no-hierarchy structure between people with and without disabilities. So this means that everyone involved in B3 is referred to as a member, such as being like a member of a community center or the member of a YMCA or a member of a faith community, you know. And we really, um, make sure that there is not any ... Or, I mean, there's always going to be power dynamics, but as much as possible we want to level the playing field, um, and that means positioning disabled people, uh, in leadership roles within the organization, whether it's on our board or our staff, um, or just in general constantly seeking their feedback on the direction of the organization as we invol- evolve, um. Jacklyn Boheler (08:31): I will say that what B3 is today is not what I envisioned it to be, like at the beginning of B3. Um. And I think that's a good thing, because we've really tried to lean into what the needs and priorities of our community actually are rather than what, um, we may have initially assumed them to be. So, yeah, B3 is definitely my, my passion and I, I definitely feel like occupation is so embedded in everything that we do, um. It's all about finding shared, um, purpose and community and developing identity, um, whether you're an ally or a person with lived experience. So, Greg, I'll pass it to you. Greg Boheler (09:20): Okay. So, I'll just try to hit some things really quickly. So B3 is, the three Bs stand for Being, um, Belonging, and Becoming better together. We have those as our guiding principles, and then kind of those set the stage for everything we do. Um. But B3, as, as Jacklyn was saying, is, it's I mean, like, it's a coffee shop but not, not really, um. That is one of the ... Like if I was pitching this business model to you, if it's our four-pronged business model, but it's just one of the four, like, areas of what B3 is, um, we do ha- we do have like kiosk where we serve coffee, and those kiosks are in collaboration with local community partners. Greg Boheler (10:01): And that's the, really the central piece of B3, is community. Um, so one is at the Chapel Hill Public Library, one is at a, um, campus developed, I don't know what you want to call it, it is- Jacklyn Boheler (10:15): Innovation Hub. Greg Boheler (10:15): UNC's building, um. Jacklyn Boheler (10:17): The startup incubator. Greg Boheler (10:17): In Chapel Hill. Yes. So, everything we do is community based and community oriented, whether that is the disability community or the broader community, um, we like to see a lot of overlap between those two, um. So we do have the kiosks, that one part. We do catering popups as well, like so we're out in the community doing events, um, and that's another part. And that's also coffee. But then the two parts that are the most exciting to me, um, as somebody who prefers tea over coffee, is the social part, the community part, and then the, the programming part. Greg Boheler (10:51): So, we have the kiosk and the catering, but the biggest part of B3 is the social component. It's the, um, weekly Zoom meetings that we started when COVID happened, it's the, um, monthly in-person socials, it's the setting up art classes with the local community partner. It's those types of things where we're, our, our B3 members are connecting with each other, they're connecting with other people in the community, um. That's really where we want to see this go, um, as an organization and then, um, the final piece is that programming piece and, and what I mean by that is, that we as, you know, neurodivergent people, and also occupational therapists, like to use our skills to create educational programming which meets the needs of the community. Greg Boheler (11:35): And that, that's where it goes back to listening to what our adults with disabilities are saying, what their families are saying, what the community is saying. What type of things do they want to work on, and then we create curriculum for that and implement it throughout the year, so. Kayla Concannon (11:50): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Greg Boheler (11:51): Okay. So, we have several programs right now. Eventually we hope to have a permanent like, location that's open all day where people can come, and each day of the week we're gonna have a different program running, um, a different class running. Kayla Concannon (12:04): Mm-hmm. Greg Boheler (12:05): Um, right now we have three classes. Our two biggest classes are belonging in the workplace, and that is something that works on workplace skills and readiness, um. I don't ... Jacklyn, you probably know this better. Jacklyn Boheler (12:19): Yeah. So, I developed this curriculum, um. We touch a lot on self-advocacy, identifying your strengths and support needs. Throughout the program our members will develop a work portfolio about themselves with, which really summarizes, um, about them and what their work interests are. And, um, we have their resume in there and a lot of other relevant information for an employer. So they could use that portfolio as an interactive part of an interview or to provide to an employer or a job coach, um. B3's, as, as far as we do with employment, we really aim to Jacklyn Boheler (13:00): Transitional, a launching pad rather than an end destination for folks, so that's why at the library, our model is a 14-week paid internship rather than long-term employment, because if we offered long-term employment there, we would hire 10 people, and that would be it. And that is not what systemic change (laughs) looks like, so we really want to rotate people through, um, make connections with employers and the community, and send our members off. And they can always be a part of our, our social stuff, so... Kayla Concannon (13:31): I've just had my jaw dropped for most of this, because (laughs) you two are doing so many different things at the same time. And I, I find it interesting, thinking about how a lot of, like, OT entrepreneurs always talk about, like, niche-ing down and finding your one thing, your one thing that you love to do. And it's like what's really important, what's occupation-based, what's lifelong involvement, is all these different pieces, employment, social, budgeting. Kayla Concannon (14:01): I mean, I love that idea, how you're starting people off, like the launchpad and, and then giving them different opportunities and giving a lot of people the opportunity to be part of your paid internship. And you're definitely doing being, belonging, and becoming really, really well (laughs) so it's nice to see- Jacklyn Boheler (14:21): Thank you. Greg Boheler (14:21): Thank you. Kayla Concannon (14:21): ... a mission statement, uh, followed through on. Um, I was also thinking about, uh, something Jacqueline said earlier, and I should've been taking notes. Jacklyn Boheler (14:33): I do have one other thing I wanted to mention about, um, the internship program, in particular. Greg Boheler (14:38): We also didn't get the other classes. Jacklyn Boheler (14:40): Yeah. Yeah. And Greg wants to talk about his classes. (laughs) Kayla Concannon (14:44): Yeah.Let's... (laughs) Jacklyn Boheler (14:44): Let's, let's, uh, loop back - this is how our conversations go. Let's loop back to the Living Your Best Life and Navigating the Digital World programs, and then we'll talk more about the internship program. Greg Boheler (14:55): Okay. I'll be super quick. The other programs that we have currently, like I said, we want to have programs for every day of the week. They may be programs that only run four weeks, because that, that covers it all, or it, maybe it's entire semester. Jacklyn Boheler (15:08): This would be- Greg Boheler (15:08): Um, right- Jacklyn Boheler (15:09): ... kind of like a clubhouse model. Greg Boheler (15:12): ... right now, we, we have semester-long programs. The one that is kind of like a sampling platter or like a, a flight if you were to go to, like, a brewery or something, is Living Your Best Life, um, which is working on a bunch of different types of adult living skills. So, um, and it's like one or two classes on each. Greg Boheler (15:33): So they're all topics that I could really dive in deeper, um, things like, uh, community mobility, getting around safely, um, budgeting, uh, having safe, um, social relationships, cooking, like, all of these different types of things that you do in your daily adult life. And we work on those in that class. Greg Boheler (15:51): And then this summer, we piloted a Digital Literacy program in collaboration with the library, once again, those community partners. Um, and I made sure to design the curriculum in a way that it was accessible for our members with intellectual disability but also interesting and engaging enough for people, um, without intellectual disability, um, because we hope to have classes where we may have some B3 members who may have disabilities, and then maybe some, you know, older adults who also could use some, you know, technical literacy education, um, in the same space. Greg Boheler (16:29): And that's really, um, that was really exciting for me this summer, is kind of coming up with that. So those are the other two classes. I'm sorry. Kayla Concannon (16:37): Mm-hmm. Greg Boheler (16:37): You can go ahead. Jacklyn Boheler (16:39): Yeah. Um, and so the other aspect of our transitional employment model, which is our kiosk, is allyship education. Um, so that's a really key part of our model, um, because integration and belonging is, is really the foundation of B3, so that involves people with and without disabilities co-creating community together. Um, and as I mentioned earlier, that takes work for people without disabilities to really understand and respect, um, the disability community. Jacklyn Boheler (17:15): So, um, our transitional employment model tends to draw a lot of pre-human service professionals. So currently, we have a few Duke OTD students, um, doing the program. We have, um, a marketing student. So, um, even, like, outside of the human service world, people want to learn how to be a better ally. Um, we've had, like, social work students involved with us. Um, I'd say the majority are, are OT because that's Greg and I's background, but we're, we're trying to branch off even more, because I think it's always good to have those interdisciplinary perspectives. Jacklyn Boheler (17:53): Um, and throughout the, the internship, they take allyship trainings involving education on disability history, the disability rights movement, um, language considerations surrounding disability, um, systemic issues impacting the IDD community, um- Greg Boheler (18:13): And what you can do to level up. Jacklyn Boheler (18:14): Yeah. Yeah. And then Greg presents his, like, allyship. Um, maybe we can link it in the show notes or something. It's like a framework for allyship where it starts with the basic awareness and then moves up to accompliceship, and there's different steps in between. And, and we obviously encourage our allies to level up as they, they grow in B3 community. Greg Boheler (18:36): Uh, and th- those are presented in brief on, um, Instagram. Jacklyn Boheler (18:40): Mm-hmm. Yeah. On our OTs for Neurodiversity Instagram, you can find that as well. Kayla Concannon (18:45): Yeah. There are so many places that we'll link to, because you have several accounts that all have different avenues of information, and we'll definitely link those. I, I remember what I was gonna say before was that you're very aware of the power dynamics at play in this kind of field, in the human services sort of field, and I think that that is something that a lot of people forget about. Kayla Concannon (19:12): So whether it's occupational therapist and client, whether it's staff and client or participants and mentors, like, there's so many different ways to name things. But having everybody be members is a nice way to make everybody feel like part of the team. I've, I've been to coffee shops that say they're like yours that are not (laughs) and- Jacklyn Boheler (19:36): Everyone is wearing a polo, and they're non-disabled; and then everyone else is wearing a t-shirt who's disabled, and it's just very clear, like- Kayla Concannon (19:44): Yes. Exactly like that. And they're l- they're kind of, uh, equivalent to, like, the Best Buddies idea, where it's like, okay, we're starting this off. We're working on employment. Jacklyn Boheler (19:54): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (19:55): We're working on community integration. But it still creates such a divide, and no [inaudible 00:20:02] better because of it. And so I think that that's, you're role modeling that. And I wish I lived closer to Chapel Hill, but I'm up in Philadelphia, and I have to make a trip down, because I'd love to meet you in person but also see everything that you're doing and support it. Um, I am won- Greg Boheler (20:21): Well, if we're ever in Philly, we'll, which we will be, because I'm a huge Philadelphia sports fan, so- Kayla Concannon (20:26): Oh, so is my partner, like, the biggest fan. Oh. Greg Boheler (20:31): Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. We can talk Eagles. So, yeah. Kayla Concannon (20:32): (laughs) Yeah. There has been a countdown on our fridge for months leading to opening day. (laughs) Greg Boheler (20:38): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (20:40): So, yeah. We will definitely talk sports, and I would love to see you up here. I, I am thinking about how, bringing this back to kind of the usual questions on the podcast, how you have a lot of education. You have been trained to do a lot of these things. And then you're also combining your own lived experience with learning from your members and your communities. Kayla Concannon (21:02): And usually, I ask people, what are some of the big things that you learned in school and the traditional education kind of format that have helped you? And then what is something or things that have been important to you that you've learned outside of school that have made a difference in your life and career? Jacklyn Boheler (21:22): Okay. Do you want me to go first? Greg Boheler (21:24): Can we do school first? Jacklyn Boheler (21:26): Yeah. Sure. Greg Boheler (21:26): If you do school, I'll do school, then- Jacklyn Boheler (21:29): Um, yeah. So in school, I would definitely say I probably learned the most from Ryan Lavalley. (laughs) Um, he is like one of my idol community-based OTs, so [inaudible 00:21:44]. Kayla Concannon (21:44): Ryan is idol to so many. Not to cut you off, but everybody should also check out Ryan's Instagram and podcast. Jacklyn Boheler (21:51): Uh. Kayla Concannon (21:51): Pause right now. Jacklyn Boheler (21:52): Truly a brilliant person. But from him, I learned a few things. First, I learned to let go of my pride in being called an OT. You don't have to be called an OT to be an OT (laughs) and you don't have to have that job title. Jacklyn Boheler (22:11): Um, I would say 90% of B3 members have no clue that's my professional background, but I am constantly using the construct of occupation to enhance quality of life for our members. And that's, at the end of the day, what matters, is you know, I'm still, I'm not wasting my degree. I'm still using that as my kind of theoretical underpinning of what I do. Jacklyn Boheler (22:38): Um, and I feel like I am liberated to reach the full potential of OT, actually, without having to follow the productivity requirements and billing and, you know, all the not-fun parts of being an, a real, I don't know, (laughs) um, like a more clinic- based OT. So, um, yeah. That was a really important step for me. Jacklyn Boheler (23:06): Uh, also with my role as a, a project coordinator with a grant, um, that's focused on systems change, my role is not an OT, but I am truly doing the work of working with groups and populations and communities rather than with individuals, um, and promoting their participation and policy change that ultimately impacts occupational justice. Jacklyn Boheler (23:34): So you know, I'm an OT, but I'm not. And you know th- there's just gonna be that complexity with my career, and I've accepted that. And, um, I really feel like I learned in school to, um, I guess just the idea that OT doesn't have to be just, like, a therapist and a client working one-on-one together. And it is so much broader than that, and that is the beauty of our (laughs) profession. Jacklyn Boheler (24:03): And, um, I, I, I think also, my strength is not working in that context. You have to be self-aware of, like, what your strengths are. Um, I'm a big thinker. I, I like to see things from more of a macro perspective, um, and work more behind the scenes rather than more direct contact. Jacklyn Boheler (24:26): So that is, um, what I learned about myself. And, um, yeah. But Ryan has been a big inspiration in, in helping me, uh, get through that identity shift, I guess. So, Greg, what did you say, or what would you say? Greg Boheler (24:45): If you have any thoughts, you can pop in, and then I'll go. Jacklyn Boheler (24:49): Okay. Greg Boheler (24:49): Kayla? Kayla Concannon (24:49): Oh, I have so many thoughts, but I, I feel similarly with the title of occupational therapist. I, I love being an occupational therapist. I love how that's given me access to the work that I do. Um, but I don't find myself doing that constant, like, "This is what occupational therapy is," with my clients. It doesn't matter. What matters is that- Jacklyn Boheler (25:15): [inaudible 00:25:16]. (laughs) Kayla Concannon (25:16): ... their hour or hours or life is getting better because we're working together. But it doesn't matter what my title is in that setting. I'm just using it to, like, qualify being on the team, on the, on the team and being involved in their life. Kayla Concannon (25:31): But I, I really value that and, and the idea that we look at occupational therapy as, like, clinical medical or not, and the "not" can be academia, community-based, grant funded. But we don't talk about the "not" so much. Kayla Concannon (25:48): And I feel like we're in this, maybe another paradigm shift, where we are getting back to mental health and living life. And I love that, and I love hearing that you love Kayla Concannon (26:00): ... that too, (laughs). Jacklyn Boheler (26:01): Yes, I truly hope that is the direction we're headed. Kayla Concannon (26:07): Me too. How 'bout you, Greg. Greg Boheler (26:09): And- and I do as well, for sure. Um, okay, so what I learned? Lots, a lot of things. Um, one that, one offer is like, for our program, which is UNC, they really hammer in right away the idea of like transactionalism and stuff. Um, which I'll just briefly if you're not like familiar. It's the idea that everything is connected and the relationship goes both ways, right? So like, the acorn is connected to the squirrel, because the squirrel might eat the acorn, but like the acorn gives the squirrel nutrient. Like, it's like everything's connected. And for me that was cool to learn because it really, um, reinforced my feelings about interdependence, right, that everybody, um, is connected. And at any point in your life, no matter what you're doing, you're never really truly independent unless you're like Robinson Crusoe on a deserted island, uh, by yourself. Um, because at some point somebody else or something else was at play. So I really liked that idea because it- it did, you know, push me more towards that interdependence versus independence, um, as an outcome, as something that we're striving for, especially with people that are transition, um, aged. Greg Boheler (27:20): And then the biggest takeaway for me was really, um, and this is like OTPS stuff for all the OTs out there, like the context stuff. Um, the understanding the different types, whether it's personal factors or somebody's cultural background, or the, um, the physical environment they're in, the social environment they're in. And then, um, realizing that that's like a fluid thing, it's like always changing, you know. Somebody may be anxious in this environment during that time in that moment, but not in like a- another similar. You would think it's the same, but it's not because there's so many different contextual things, um, at play. Um, and I like to call it contextual cognizance because I thought that sounded cool. Um, but yeah, definitely context. Greg Boheler (28:07): And I just wanna tie that really quick back into the whole, um, the power dynamic thing, right, because when you're working with a client or whatever we're gonna call it, um, or you're just interacting with a disabled person as somebody without a disability, like there's, that power hierarchy is coming into play in that context, right? That mismatch is immediately, maybe not like very apparent, but it's like it's there, right, because a lot of times the client needs something from the OT. And so, a part of like striving towards allyship is- is seeking more authentic relationships, um, whether that's with a client, wether that's someone you meet on the street who, you know, you may have things that are contextually different between you. Um, and so I think that was huge for me because it really kind of fit into that- that framework of like authenticity and embracing vulnerability, like those types of things as methods for, um, combating some of the power hydeum, power dynamics that just exist. Kayla Concannon (29:22): I am so glad you brought up independence verse interdependence, because independence is such a buzzword like, "Let's go be independent." But independence, it is also really close to loneliness and isolation, and that's not good for anybody. So interdependence- Jacklyn Boheler (29:39): It's a unrealistic standard. It- It- Kayla Concannon (29:40): Yeah. Jacklyn Boheler (29:40): ... sets people up for failure. (laughs) And, um- Kayla Concannon (29:44): Right. And it's something we only talk about for disabled people. We- Jacklyn Boheler (29:51): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (29:51): Nobody else is striving for independence- Greg Boheler (29:53): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (29:53): ... except for people that have an IEP. Jacklyn Boheler (29:56): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (29:56): That's not- Greg Boheler (29:56): 'Cause it's on the IEP, yeah. Kayla Concannon (29:59): Yes, exactly. And- and so that is, yeah, that, I think that is unrealistic expectations in a negative way where it seems like the bar is set high, but really the bar is set at a destination that nobody really should be heading towards. And I think that also aligns with your, I like your term contextual cognizance, is that it? (laughs) So, I love that idea too, because another thing that we tend to do is when we're working with disabled people or people with disabilities, however they identify, there's, again, these pressures that we put on people to act certain ways in certain places or to act the same way all the time. Where meanwhile, neurotypical people or people without disabilities or pre-disabled, we have the luxury of having a bad day, of not getting enough sleep, of being hangry, of being, like PMSing or (laughs) whatever it is, and we don't let that be a, the natural flow of life for anybody else. And I- I appreciate you bring up that and- and coining that, contextual cognizance, of everybody is allowed to have different things going on in different places at different times. Greg Boheler (31:17): Yeah, and just be aware of 'em. Just be thinking, looking for them, you know? You're not gonna catch everything, but just be open to it. Jacklyn Boheler (31:23): And it's also why OT is not a protocol, like textbook approach ( laughs) and why we can't just use these blanket behavioral strategies for everyone, because everyone is different and there's all these variables that are constantly changing an inter- interaction with a person. And, um, yeah, that's a big reason why behavioral approaches tend to not be effective. Um- Kayla Concannon (31:50): Yeah. Sorry, (laughs) I get excited to bring up behavior. Um, because I have a couple of previous and upcoming guests that are talking about behavior, including, I'm hopeful to have somebody who is an autistic BCBA and talking- Jacklyn Boheler (32:09): That'll be a a really interesting conversation, yeah. Kayla Concannon (32:13): Yeah, fingers crossed to schedule that one, because it's such a hot topic these days of- of, yeah, behaviors, um, and how I- I think that's the opposite of consent. And in- in my field of kind of sex education, it's- it's harmful. Um, but that's not what this episode's about, (laughs) so. This episode is about, yeah, you've learned some awesome things in school, you had great professors like Ryan, um, but then outside of school or since school, what has, what has taught you a lesson that has impacted all these different avenues you're working on? Jacklyn Boheler (32:51): Okay. So outside of school I would say my biggest lesson has been letting go of perfectionism. Um, I think I'm a very Type A (laughs) person and I wanna do things right, and I wanna be perceived, um, by others as doing things right. And, um, I think I've really had to break down my ego and embrace vulnerability. Because as Greg mentioned, that is connection. Um, when others can realize that, like you're not perfect and you make mistakes, um, it gives them freedom to open up to you and, um, yeah, it really just facilitates, um, this sense of safety. A- and so, yeah, I think I've I really had to learn that, um, my vision of B3 is, uh, like what it is today may be different (laughs) tomorrow, um, because it- it is constantly in response to the disability community and- and collaboration. Um, and also part of disability culture is vulnerability and, um, just the constant barriers that disabled people face in daily life leads to the n- the need to be adaptable. Um, and I really think that's an area that I've had to grow in, um, being more of a- a rigid person that has like a s, like I see things a certain way and I think they should be executed a certain way. And, um, yeah, that's- that's definitely what I've- I've learned outside of school, so (laughs). Kayla Concannon (34:48): Wow. Uh, relatable. Yeah, that perfectionism is a privilege when you have so many people involved in your life or your care, or whatever and you s- you start to... Or- or, uh, working with that you start to see that you can go with the flow and it will be okay. Jacklyn Boheler (35:08): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (35:09): And we can adapt. And it might cause some anxiety, but it's another thing you can kind of practice. And I- Jacklyn Boheler (35:17): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (35:17): ... yeah, same with my business. I started it and went, "This is what I'm gonna do." And three years later it has changed so much. A podcast was never on the agenda (laughs). And I- I like when I look back on younger Kayla and glad I picked a relatively neutral business name, because (laughs) it can be whatever it ends up being and I love that. And I love that it's guided by my clients and my families, and my research, and my interactions, because you have to. If you're so rigid, you're gonna fall behind. And, um- Jacklyn Boheler (35:51): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (35:51): ... I'm sure all of your members appreciate growing with you and- and being parts of the changes that are happening. Jacklyn Boheler (36:05): Yeah. Greg Boheler (36:06): I know I was never that (laughs). Um, you know, it's I guess there are a lot of things about me that are very autistic. Um, um, one of 'em that's not I don't think is, like I just go with it. Like I don't, uh, I don't have that perfectionist standard. Like I'll just, you know, just wing it. Um, and I think that was- Jacklyn Boheler (36:30): [inaudible 00:36:29] each other. Kayla Concannon (36:31): (laughs) Greg Boheler (36:31): Say what? Yeah, we do complement each other. Um, I think that was crafted by my experiences. So there's my context, right, my background. Um, and I think that's really where I learned a lot of things. The thing that I wanna talk about what I learned, um, is that you- you can learn, and this is something that I didn't just like, was completely not even on my radar when I was a 19-year-old undiagnosed autistic ADHDer. Like I mean they thought I, they knew I had ADHD, but they didn't know the other part. Um, so, but since then definitely something I've learned. Um, my experiences in school, I got late diagnosed, I spent... I had to leave school for medical reasons, I worked very, very hard and prioritized work instead of school, and so school took longer than it should've. Um, and along the way I learned that you can learn something from, like anybody, because I was in all these different, you know, environments and I'm encountering a lot of different people. And when I was younger I was closed, more closed-minded to that, you know, 'cause I thought I was smart and, uh, other things. But, um, but dropping that ego and just being open, right, you can learn something from anybody as long as you're open to learning, like to listening. Greg Boheler (37:51): Um, and that goes for like, you know, people who may not be somebody that you encounter or- or would be somebody that you would call a friend, right. Or, um, something that we've learned, you know, with B3 is that some of the most, like the greatest wisdoms in the world have come people with intellectual disability, right. That's the traditional area where you think th- that information may be coming from, um, but it's important just to be open to learning from any d- any given experience, um, any given person, um, yeah. Kayla Concannon (38:31): Yeah. And also, I'd just like t- to add on that. People with intellectual disabilities are brilliant in their own ways. (laughs) I think, um, eh, I, uh, intellect is- is such a social construct, in my opinion (laughs) and It's become so pathologized, um- Greg Boheler (38:52): Very narrowly defined. Kayla Concannon (38:54): Yeah. And I think when you start to see people for their humanity instead of just, you know, the- the Jacklyn Boheler (39:00): ... the, the stigma that comes along with their diagnosis, then, um, that's when you can really open yourself up to learning from them and, and their brilliance. Greg Boheler (39:11): And also, just speaking of learning, being open to learning. Um, you were mentioning, um, Kayla, mistakes earlier. Um, I love mistakes. Oh, my gosh. And that's ... Uh, I had to take an ABA class, so like I have a very nuanced idea of what like behaviorism and stuff is. Greg Boheler (39:28): But one thing ... Uh, I, I'm not a huge behaviorist type of guy. But one thing that I will say against it like that's concrete for this discussion is that you need to allow mistakes to happen. Like the correction of mistakes is taking away valuable learning opportunities from people. Um, so just being open to those types of learning is- Jacklyn Boheler (39:52): Yeah. Greg Boheler (39:52): ... huge. Jacklyn Boheler (39:52): Natural consequences. Mm-hmm. Greg Boheler (39:54): Yep. Kayla Concannon (39:55): Yeah, and that's ... Natural consequences are underrated, I think- Greg Boheler (40:00): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (40:00): Because for a lotta folks that have intellectual or developmental disabilities, we're, we're, we're sheltering them. Jacklyn Boheler (40:08): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (40:08): So what ... And then we go, "All right, congrats. You graduated high school. You're an adult now. Good luck," and have had no opportunity for learning about themselves, like trusting their gut, interoception, like understanding who they are because so many people have been telling them who they are for so many years. But then also learning about the world, and like learning about other people, and learning about how you fit in to the world. And, uh, it ... Yeah. When we shelter people, we, we take away opportunities for learning that are, that are just part of living. Kayla Concannon (40:47): Um, and I also- Greg Boheler (40:49): [inaudible 00:40:49] I am ... Sorry. Kayla Concannon (40:51): Go ahead. Greg Boheler (40:51): I am fully ... Uh, like in my capacity working in the schools, I am fully willing to go down that wild goose chase that I know is not gonna end ... Like but that's what they are passionate about. That's what they're interested in, or that's the way they want to pursue it. And I may know ahead of time not the best idea, but, but if it's not gonna hurt anybody, um, that's a valuable learning experience. So we'll- Kayla Concannon (41:16): [inaudible 00:41:17] Greg Boheler (41:16): ... go off book for couple days or whatever and, you know, (laughs) we'll learn from it. Kayla Concannon (41:22): I, I think that's awesome. Yeah, let them learn from it. And also, yeah, if it's not gonna harm anybody ... The only reason we tend to like switch those things is because of like the one in charge's comfort level or because of efficiency. If it ... Greg Boheler (41:36): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (41:36): Oh, it'll just be faster if I do it- Greg Boheler (41:38): Productivity standards. Greg Boheler (41:38): Yeah. Kayla Concannon (41:38): Yeah. Greg Boheler (41:38): [inaudible 00:41:39] Kayla Concannon (41:40): And, and we're so trained by that as, as different kinds of staff. And, and I also think this goes to what Jacklyn was saying about what, what is intellect? What is knowledge? What is valuable? And I would agree that most of my best life lessons and things that I think about on a regular basis are from clients that I've had with intellectual disabilities because ... And not to ... Uh, this could sound like, um, I don't know, like angels. Jacklyn Boheler (42:12): Not angels. They're not angels, but- Kayla Concannon (42:13): Yeah. No. No, no, no, no. No, and I ... What I mean is I think [inaudible 00:42:18] Jacklyn Boheler (42:18): No, I totally know what ... Yeah. Kayla Concannon (42:19): Because of a lot of the systems- Kayla Concannon (42:21): ... that are in place that keep them from things like traditional employment, moving out to college, moving out on your own, like these different life chapters, I think that there's a lot of, um, social norms that they question- Jacklyn Boheler (42:40): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (42:40): ... in a really meaningful way. And so learning about what ... Yeah, "Why are th-" They're asking why. And then I'm going, "I don't have a good answer for that." And then- (laughs) And I, I appreciate like all of the questions that my clients ask and also the answers that they have. Like they have helped me through like my cat dying in a way that nobody else in my life could have, because they were just like, "Oh, how's Mia? She died? Okay, sorry." And it's like (laughs) okay, we're moving on. And the, and things that have helped me along the way with just having so many different perspectives that aren't so scripted by the social norms that all the neurotypical, nondisabled people are following. Jacklyn Boheler (43:23): Yeah. Greg Boheler (43:24): Uh, you're hitting ... And I don't want to sidetrack here, but it's connected, um, 'cause that's how my mind works. Um, but, uh, you're talking about the ... Oh God, I'm- Greg Boheler (43:34): ... losing it. Let's come back to it. Bring it back. Skepticism, yes. Okay, asking questions. Yeah. Um, that's one of my big things that I harp on, being open to the lear-, learning from different perspectives, right? Being open to listening and experiencing potentially different cultures and through somebody, right? And whether that's like a disability culture or a different type of culture. Um, something that I feel like a lotta people lose as they grow up that is connected with that is that skeptic's mindset, that questioning mindset of like why. Like the followup, right? That those types of questions as we become ... Um, and I am not speaking for everybody. But as many people become like, you know, cynical adults, they just accept things, right? Um, whereas it's very important as people, uh, and, and practitioners to constantly be asking those, those questions. Greg Boheler (44:34): Um, some of the coolest people in the world have maintained like childhood curiosity, and it's ... Like it's so amazing. Um, I wish I could do that. I'm definitely a skeptic, but I wish I had that, that level of questioning, um, because like you're saying, that's some of, some of the most like ... The greatest wisdom comes from that, I feel like. Kayla Concannon (44:59): Hm. Yeah, definitely staying curious is not the easiest thing to do, but such a valuable mindset you can try to incorporate. Jacklyn Boheler (45:11): Hm. Kayla Concannon (45:13): I guess we should wrap it up. I, I am also curious ... Uh, this is not related to the podcast, but I am curious at some point to talk about like how you fund B3 and pay people and like those sorts of business questions because I think a lotta people will see what you're doing and want to know how that can be replicated or created in a, in a meaningful way. Kayla Concannon (45:36): But I just love everything that you're doing. I, I really think that you two as a team are, are a really good (laughs) example of how you can have things in common with your partner, and you can also have things that are different. So like perfectionist or go with the flow. I'm got ADHD chaos, and my partner is the most routined person I know and (laughs) stable and balanced. And I know that's been good for our relationship and, I think, good in a, in a partnership, whether it's like romantic or business. Jacklyn Boheler (46:07): Mm-hmm. Kayla Concannon (46:07): And, yeah, finding ways to connect with all your different members in the ways that your strengths allow you to is, is really, really awesome. Kayla Concannon (46:20): Um, I will tell Greg Boheler (46:21): I can give you- Kayla Concannon (46:22): ... ooh. Greg Boheler (46:23): ... quick keys for like our finance. Okay. Kayla Concannon (46:26): Yeah. Greg Boheler (46:26): Three quick keys. Number one, um, certain things can be just break even. Like when we do our internship stuff at the kiosk, right, as long as we're breaking there, the value in that is not in are we making money in the stand. The value in that is do we have people that are potentially having their first job ever and learning, and can we connect them with commu-, like community job sites afterward? Um, so being okay with some areas of your business breaking even because the value is not necessarily in the money is one thing. Greg Boheler (46:56): Um, the second thing is leverage community. Like, like I said, B3 is so community in- integrated. Um, like everything we do is, is like connected with the local community. And there's a lotta give and take with that, you know? Potentia- We ... In the past, we've had like marketing students do some of our social media, right? That's free. They, they gotta do projects, you know? Those ty- Getting creative with those types of things within the community, um, and giving and taking. Greg Boheler (47:24): And then the last one is educa-, programming, educational programming. If you're doing ... Uh, I mean, that is just like ... Kayla Concannon (47:30): Hm. Greg Boheler (47:31): The cost of doing those types of programs, um, whether it's like a recreational program or this type of skill learning program, um, are very insignificant to what you can bring in because it, it's offering such great value to people. Greg Boheler (47:46): And, um, with our programming, we're able to offer full scholarships, partial scholarships because there's ... it's such a high profit margin. Jacklyn Boheler (47:55): leverage our- Greg Boheler (47:55): Yeah. Jacklyn Boheler (47:55): ... managed care organizations to be- Greg Boheler (47:58): Yeah. Jacklyn Boheler (47:59): ... able to use, um, Medicaid Innovations Waiver funding- Greg Boheler (48:01): Yes. Jacklyn Boheler (48:02): ... for [inaudible 00:48:03]. We have that, and we also partner with First In Families, which is a local nonprofit that, um, funds people, um, to really do anything that would enhance their quality of life. So, yeah. We, we definitely, um, have gotten creative with our funding streams. And, of course, as a nonprofit, we apply for tons of grants as well. Kayla Concannon (48:26): Oh, that's so epic. I ... And like I'm saying (laughs) with pretty much everybody I've interviewed, I can't wait till this is published so I can listen to it again because you two have so much that I want to learn from and, and try to replicate in different ways. I think you are a really genuine example of leveling up that, uh, I think a lot of listeners will strive for. So thank you for being here today and- Jacklyn Boheler (48:52): Your welcome. Greg Boheler (48:52): thank you Kayla Concannon (48:52): Thank you. Jacklyn Boheler (48:54): I definitely feel we have similar philosophies in our organizations (laughs) so ... Kayla Concannon (48:59): Yeah. Organizations and sports teams. (laughs) Greg Boheler (49:02): Yeah, go Birds. Am I allowed to say that? Kayla Concannon (49:03): You're allowed to say that- Greg Boheler (49:03): You could cut it. Kayla Concannon (49:03): It's your interview. (laughs) Might be a good spot to end it, go Birds and upset Greg Boheler (49:10): Yeah, end it on go Birds. Yeah. Kayla Concannon (49:12): ... people. (laughs) Oh, well thank you both.