Geralyn Arango-Deely (00:19):
Hello and welcome to season three of Our Parallel Paths: A Future for My Loved One With a Disability... and For Me! I'm your host, Gerry, Dr. Geralyn Arango-Deely, and this podcast is about just what the title says, the parallel paths of family members, certainly parents, sometimes siblings, as parents age or pass on, other caregivers, and their loved ones with intellectual disabilities. I'm a parent myself, and I always have questions.

(00:49):
Our Parallel Paths is about creating a promising future for our adult family member with an intellectual disability and a promising future for ourselves as that role of parent, family member, caregiver evolves alongside them. There is more than one path, more than one future to talk about, and that's why we're here. Some remarkable people share their stories on Our Parallel Paths, and I really hope that the stories and the wisdom resonate with you, and give you ideas and hope for your future.

(01:23):
So, the person I'm speaking with today has been involved with my family for, hm, over a decade, and she's helped support us through some big life changes, including Nick's behavior issues in adolescence, and the impact of the death of my first husband on my Nick, on his sister, Courtney, and on me. Today's guest so often seems to be able to wade through my stories and my rants to come up with some really pointed bit of insight that I think about for weeks to come, including our topic for today, individuation and asking, what do I want, and why that matters.

(02:01):
So, I'm honored and I'm excited to introduce you to today's guest, Maleita Olson. Maleita is an LCSW, a licensed clinical social worker and behavior specialist, a certified autism specialist, an advocate for persons with disabilities throughout the lifespan, and a mother of four. Maleita is a senior director and co-founder of Spectra Support Services in Springfield, Pennsylvania. Hello, Maleita.

Maleita Olson (02:28):
Hello, Gerry.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (02:28):
Welcome, welcome. So, I've been thinking about the term individuation, which is a word that came up when you and I were talking one day, and it is a word I've seen in several contexts. I think it's like Carl Jung terminology, yeah? And, you referred to this when you and I talked about Nick's and my adult relationship, perhaps one of over-attachment, and I came away realizing that I have just as much work, if not more work, than Nick does to help myself to be able to step back a little, so that there are two adults, uh, for Nick to be that adult and to take more risks, even if people have to tie my hands and watch while I'm doing it, while he's doing it, you know?

(03:16):
And, and for, for me to allow myself to, like, separate my own life from his and try to live my own life even though I have to support and, and often monitor his. You said that I had to ask myself once in a while, what do you want? So, Maleita, why is that so hard? (laughs)

Maleita Olson (03:42):
Thanks, Gerry, and thanks for having me. Um, I think it begins, the why is it so hard, really begins with the role that special needs parents have in their, in their, in the lives of their children, and, and, but I want to start with, actually, the context of what I think is a major shift that's happened in parenting in general. So, when I do workshops, I sometimes use a slide, and I wish I had ... Maybe I'll give you the slide. You can put it up on Facebook-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (04:11):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (04:11):
... and it's this slide, it's a picture of helicopter parents, you know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (04:16):
(laughs)

Maleita Olson (04:18):
And, you know, that has been a major shift, and what people don't pay attention to, like, that's something people laugh at. You know, we don't want to be a helicopter parent, or we are helicopter parents, or there's all kinds of debate about whether that's healthy, um, of which I think it's not. (laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (04:30):
(laughs)

Maleita Olson (04:31):
Uh, but that's a whole nother, a whole nother podcast, but what I think is really relevant about it is the fact that there is this shift in what a good parent is. And so, a good parent, you know, a generation ago, the joke is always, you'll hear it on lots of podcasts, and lots of books, and people have written about it, is we just, you know, we're out until the lights came on, and when the lights came on, that, we knew it was time to come home, or, or things like that, or I waited for mom and dad to yell for dinner, because parenting was about just letting your kids go be with other kids-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:05):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (05:06):
... and then just being a support to them, but it was definitely not a rescue job.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:11):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (05:11):
And yet, what has happened is in this generation, and this is not unique to special needs. It goes also to neurotypical, um, families, is that we have this sense that we need to rescue our child from failure, our rescue, you know, our, you know, classic metaphor, or not metaphor, our classic situation where everybody gets a trophy, you know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:33):
(laughs)

Maleita Olson (05:33):
We don't want them to-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:34):
Yeah, mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (05:34):
... experience failure.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:35):
Oh, heavens, no.

Maleita Olson (05:36):
Right? Because-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:37):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (05:37):
... if they have failure and bad feelings, then it's my fault.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:41):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (05:41):
And, there's that connection that has evolved in parenting over this last generation that any bad feelings that my child has, or any failures that my child has, or anything that my child goes through, if my child is anxious, it's my responsibility to avoid that happening. And so, I think that what ends up happening, you know, obviously in, for special needs parents, you're so involved. We, I'm gonna say we, because I have kids with ADHD, and (laughs) autism, and all that, so-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:10):
Okay, yeah.

Maleita Olson (06:10):
... I'm just gonna say we. I'm gonna own it. (laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:13):
Welcome. [inaudible 00:06:14] (laughs)

Maleita Olson (06:14):
Um, we, we, we just, we want to protect them from anxiety. We want to protect them from failure. And so, we, we just got used to compensating for their inefficiencies, compensating for their disability, compens- compensating for whatever they can't do. And so, our entire identity gets wrapped in theirs, right?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:36):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (06:36):
Our identity is, who am I for, in your case, for Nick?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:41):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (06:41):
You know, I am Nick's mom. Like, I actually, this is a funny story that will actually really point it out. So, my, um, one of my children, uh, actually now works, uh, for Spectra, and, um, he is an aide for our day program. So, he takes the individuals out into the community. And, there's this one young woman, and she always knew my name, because it's, you know, my business. I founded it with my sister, and she's always like, "Hey, Maleita, hey, Maleita, hey, Maleita." Well, then, she got really close to my son-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:14):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (07:14):
... and then she just, now, I'm my son's mom. I don't have an identity anymore. (laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:20):
[inaudible 00:07:21]

Maleita Olson (07:20):
I'm my son's mom, um, and it just reminds me of the fact that, like, as special need, it's like, our primary day and identity tends to be, we're, you're Nick's mom-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:31):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (07:31):
... or I'm, you know, my son's mom. And, and, and so, or my daughter's mom, and it's, and that's true of all moms-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:37):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (07:37):
... that we kind of lose our identity in those, in those childbearing years. What differentiates it is that the childbearing or the launch is, is delayed-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:46):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (07:46):
... or doesn't happen at all.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:47):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (07:48):
So, when you don't launch them into adulthood, you don't separate, and, and, and recognize that they are meant to be launching also. Yes, the launch looks different-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (08:01):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (08:01):
... but they still need to launch.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (08:03):
And yet, the other thing I think about when you say that is that sometimes the idea of, okay, we have to separate, and it might look different, sometimes it feels like it actually goes backward, you know? That, that the separating becomes, kind of evaporates into something where I have to protect my child even now, and I kind of wonder about that, as well, because it just sometimes feels like you retreat back into something where you're sort of like, oh, I'm supposed to be thinking about this, and he, my child's supposed to be thinking about this. And yet, sometimes it, it goes backward. Does that make sense?

Maleita Olson (08:38):
It does, but I think the, I think the challenge is that in, in, when we launch, when we launch a neurotypical child, in theory, we're handing things over. So, the first thing we do in adolescence is we hand over ... We don't want to, probably, but we, we do der-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (08:54):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (08:55):
... we could or should hand over influence about their values, influence about their thinking. That starts to get handed over to their peers.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:03):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (09:04):
That's a piece that's missing in a lot of special needs kids, because their peers don't always have that life-filling influence on them the same way they do for a neurotypical peer, especially not in adolescence. Like, if it does happen, it tends to happen later. So, f- the first thing is, it's like, part of what I think you're identifying is that parents have some comfort in backing out when they knows who's coming in, if that makes sense, for support.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:34):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (09:34):
So, the fact that you don't know who's coming in makes it that much harder to say, "Oh, I can step out." So, for example, you know, my son's birthday's tomorrow. He's turning 23 tomorrow, and it's the very first year that he's, you know, I was gonna stay back, so I could take him out to dinner, and, you know-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:55):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (09:55):
... spend it with him, because the rest of the family is on vacation down the shore, and he's like, "Oh, sorry, Mom. I'm spending it with my girlfriend," and I was like, "Oh, okay." Well, that's normal.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:05):
Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Maleita Olson (10:05):
Like, that's what's supposed to happen. Like, you know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:07):
And, you're supposed to go, "Oh," but then you're supposed to be okay with it. (laughs)

Maleita Olson (10:10):
You're supposed to be okay with it, and you're supposed to be like, okay, right, yeah. I don't, I don't have to make your birthday special at 23.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:16):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (10:17):
That's, that's your job to, to, you know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:18):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (10:19):
But, I can feel comfort, because it was handed over. So, his girlfriend's fulfilling a role that I used to fill, in this case.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:25):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (10:25):
And, I think that's why there's this fear, or anxiety, or, I'm not sure, you, you can probably articulate the right word for it, that if I step out, who's filling that void? I think void's the right word.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:39):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (10:39):
You're fearful of the void. If I step out-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:41):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (10:41):
... there's a void, and then, that void's going to lead to some kind of bad outcome, some kind of catastrophic event-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:54):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (10:54):
... some kind of-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:54):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (10:54):
... you know? It's that fear that kind of sits in the back of our mind that it's our job to prevent that catastrophic event.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:00):
Yeah, and I think, is it, is it because it may ha- may have a greater degree of that could happen than with a typical, you know, young adult?

Maleita Olson (11:14):
Yeah. I think so, but I also think it's part, it, it's that we haven't also, like ... We don't trust our special needs kids' own agency enough.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:28):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (11:28):
You know what I mean? Like, we f- we kind of, we think that, whether we want to or not, even if we see them as adults on one hand, there's a part of us that always sees them as a child.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:37):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (11:37):
And so, as a child, they don't, they're not responsible for anything bad that happens to them-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:43):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (11:43):
... except they are.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:44):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (11:44):
Like, they really are.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:45):
Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Even back then. (laughs)

Maleita Olson (11:47):
Even, even back then. You know, children are still a little bit responsible. And so, you know, we have to recognize the fact that they are responsible, and it's not our fault if, if bad things happen. I think that's what, it all comes down to something that simple.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:01):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (12:01):
It's not our fault if bad things happen. That's number one. Number two, sometimes bad things happening is a good and healthy thing. Not always.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:09):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (12:10):
I mean, I'm not talking about, you know, true catastrophe.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:12):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (12:12):
I don't want someone to be abused. I don't want someone to be, you know, injured, and, and things like that-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:17):
Sure.

Maleita Olson (12:17):
... but risk-taking-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:19):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (12:19):
... where there's lots of failure, and there's lots, that is healthy.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:24):
Yeah. I mean, I, I, there's a phrase I love that's a ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for.

Maleita Olson (12:31):
Oh, I love it.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:31):
Isn't that beautiful?

Maleita Olson (12:32):
It is beautiful.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:33):
It just sort of says it, you know? Um, and so, I think, I think that, you know, I think about my daughter's sort of individuation, separation. She, like, orchestrated it, you know?

Maleita Olson (12:43):
(laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:44):
She joined the navy. She got married, you know? And, Nick, Nick has been sort of doing it, I guess, and sort of doing it with, you know, hover mother with him.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (13:00):
Um, I'm really proud of this. We're sitting in Nick's condo, um, where he and his bestie live, and it's... I thought about this when I bought this place after Al died. It was like, someday, someone's gonna live here besides me. Like, this could be great for, you know, Courtney if she wanted to, but Nick, like, it's the safest place on Earth. You know, it's got a pool. It's got lovely neighbors. It's... He, you know... It's funny, this... When you talk about the, the c- catastrophe, like, I'm praying every time Nick crosses the street, even here. Like, you know, it's, "you're gonna get hit by a car, because I've seen you cross the street", you know? But it's like, how do I not let him try, you know?

Maleita Olson (13:44):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (13:45):
And when I've had him, like, walk all the way to the end of the compound to mail a letter, sounds so simple, but it's all street. There's no sidewalks, and so, the first few times I did it, this is silly. I was, like, 100 yards away, but I could see him. What I could do 100 yards away (laughs)-

Maleita Olson (14:01):
(Laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (14:03):
... was nothing, but I felt better, you know? And I just like, stay inside the yellow line, whatever. Um, it is such a shift, and I think that what helps me... Nothing much helps me sometimes, but is to see, wow, he got back, you know?

Maleita Olson (14:18):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (14:19):
And maybe that horn that honked was somebody saying, "Get out of the way," but he got back, you know. And so, it feels so incremental, but, you know, I want him to realize those moments, too. And...

Maleita Olson (14:36):
Well, that's the piece that we forget. We forget that this, you know, individualizing that, that we want them to do creates more self-worth in them. If they're dependent on someone else for their whole life, that impacts how they feel about themselves. I'm not good enough to make these decisions. I'm not good enough to do these things. And so, we forget that in- unintentionally, yeah, maybe we're protecting them from one thing, or, or, you know, we're in the harbor, so we're protecting them from, you know, the hurricane out at sea. But we didn't, to your point, we didn't let them learn that, you know, there are big waves, and guess what, they can survive.

(15:12):
And then, that gives them more confidence, and that's a confidence that can purvey to other things. It's not just that one event that you let them do, that they got successful at, or that they learned how to pick up. I mean, one of the things... I, I still remember this. This was, like, gosh, a long time ago, maybe 15 years ago, when I was in a workshop, and it, it happened to be... You know, I'm a clinical social worker, so it was a workshop about suicide.

(15:33):
And one of the things that they made, back then, and this is a good 15 years ago, and I just heard in a workshop recently that suicide is the number one killer of adolescents. It's just surpassed, um, car accidents, and I only say that because-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (15:47):
Ooh.

Maleita Olson (15:47):
... one of the con- main contributors, you know, the re-... I'm not trying to make a sad thing (laughs), but one of the main contributors to, to the suicide is that people don't know that failure's not forever, that kids, because they've been rescued and rescued-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:01):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (16:01):
... and rescued, they think failure's forever.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:03):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (16:04):
They don't know that there's such a thing as failing, feeling awful, being demoralized, being whatever, and then there's something called recovery.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:13):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (16:13):
And without the experience-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:16):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (16:16):
... you can't just tell them. Without the experience of recovery from failure, your resiliency isn't built. And, and I remember, you know, I, I did, there's an actually, actual study out there, and I, I love doing this in, in some of my workshops. I'll say to people, "You know, what's the number one marker of success in higher education?" And people will always be like, oh, it's your aca-, you know, your core academic skills, or it's your organizational skills, or it's... You know, they'll give all of the different reasons.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:43):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (16:43):
The number one predictor of academic success, resiliency.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:48):
That's a word that I used on my daughter when she was in the little baby carrier and I went to a workshop, and I'll never forget that. Because the presenter, we all went around, and he said, "What is what you wish for your child?" And when she came to me, I said, "I wish her to be resilient, because life is gonna knock her down, and pick her up, and knock her down, and she needs to be resilient." And I've always wished that for her, as for her brother, as for her step, their step-siblings, everybody. Um, but that's, I, I love hearing that word.

(17:20):
Because I think that that's it, and when you hear people not experiencing failure, so they don't know what it is. So when it does happen, it seems worse, and the message that we give them is that, oh, my gosh, I don't want you to fail.

Maleita Olson (17:33):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:33):
We've already told them-

Maleita Olson (17:35):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:35):
... that this is the worst thing that could ever happen to you-

Maleita Olson (17:37):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:37):
... and you'll never come out of it.

Maleita Olson (17:39):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:40):
Like, that wasn't my experience.

Maleita Olson (17:42):
No (laughs).

Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:42):
You know, why am I telling them, why am I lying to my child, you know (laughs)?

Maleita Olson (17:47):
Yeah. But I think part of it goes back to that enculturation, that we're responsible for their failures, and we're responsible for their suffering, right? We're responsible. Somehow, as parents, especially mothers, um, we have gotten this internalization in this generation that any suffering and any, anything bad, any failures, any suffering, any pain, any anxiety that our children experience, we should've prevented it. Somehow, we were supposed to be these omniscient people that could see the world and imagine, and, and see the, the, the pothole that they were gonna step in, you know-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:21):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (18:21):
... and, and prevent it from happening. And if y-, if I'm, any of us take the time to step back, we'll realize that that's, that's the subliminal message in our parenting-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:30):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (18:30):
... that we're supposed to do it, so that when they do fail, we're like, "Uh, what did I do? What did I do?"

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:35):
Listen to that. What did I do?

Maleita Olson (18:35):
What did I do?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:36):
Yeah. Michael and I, I've said, like, when, when we grew up in the '70s or whatever, it's like, we weren't that interesting to our parents (laughs).

Maleita Olson (18:43):
No. No. No.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:45):
It's like, oh, we love yeah, but, you know, go play, and come home when you're done, and, and-

Maleita Olson (18:49):
Exactly.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:49):
... like, I want you home at 7:00. Get your butt in here at 7:00. That was like-

Maleita Olson (18:52):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:52):
... we weren't that fascinating to them.

Maleita Olson (18:54):
Nope.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:54):
You know, and we are... I think we have so much, I guess so much invested in what it looks like to the world, you know.

Maleita Olson (19:01):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (19:02):
Um, and, but that doesn't show our children that they can ever be wrong, and that you survive.

Maleita Olson (19:11):
Right.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (19:11):
You know, and that's typical, neurotypical. And then, you know, ramp it up, kick it up 10 notches to the disability angle, where, you know, I have had families, you know, conversation, "Oh, what's Nick doing or whatever?" I was like, well, he works in the community, and he makes a pretty decent salary. And they like him, and he likes the job. And, you know, it's like... And then, he's got staff in the afternoon until I'm, whatever. And for some people, that's a very different path, and I think sometimes even just, like, back in the day, when a working mother and a stay-at-home mother, both were working mothers, um, wouldn't really support each other's decisions. Remember back in those days of, you know, oh, I would never leave my child, you know?

Maleita Olson (19:57):
Oh, absolutely.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (19:58):
All that stuff? It's like, it's kinda the same thing, and me sitting down with people and saying, "Oh, yeah, and then Nick lives in my, in my old condo with his friend, and then we have supports coming and going all day, and whatever." And they're like... And I've had people say, "I could never do that to my child." And it was just like, okay, don't, but, like, why? Your business... and why are you telling me that? You know, and then I internalize it, and say, "Oh, my God, I'm, you know, hanging him out to dry." And it's like, well, y- maybe, but how is, how is this ever gonna work any other way, you know? How is it, when I'm gone, is this young man, who might be an older man by then, hopefully, um, will be able to function at least somewhat without somebody hovering over them all the time? It's all I can do for him.

Maleita Olson (20:54):
It is, and, and I think you're pointing to a fact that it is occurring to me that, you know, unfortunately, with the really tragic history of a couple generations ago, where, where these individuals were just sent away-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:10):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (21:10):
... and, you know, out of sight, out of mind-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:11):
Oh, yeah.

Maleita Olson (21:12):
... then w-, there's no model, right? There's no model for how to be this parent. You know what I mean? There's no o-, there's no opportunity to... We typically pass knowledge of this kind of thing down generation to generation, but there's no knowledge.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:29):
That's my next question of you (laughs).

Maleita Olson (21:29):
Go for it. Go for it.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:30):
No, that's, that is so true, because I was thinking about this. I didn't meant to interrupt you, but it was just like, she's thinking me, reading my mind. Um, I thought about, you know, parents just having different ideas about this from back from even what they were told in K12. You know, I was told how much we love Nick, and I'm so worried about him. And I've got a day program that I think he'd really enjoy, and it was like, well, that's cool, but that's not what we want. And it would keep coming up in the conversation. It was like, well, that's cool, but that's not what I want, you know?

(22:02):
Um, and so, the message at that point, that that, and I was a K12 person, so I'm gonna own that, you know, is, is sort of like, this is who knows best, and this is what you should expect. And if you don't have the history, you may totally figure that's what... And, and there's no wrong answer. I think that there just needs to be an informed choice made. I'm not gonna tell you that your, your son or daughter shouldn't be in a day program, but I'm gonna tell you, make sure that's your decision, and not what's assumed by someone else that that's what we do for them.

Maleita Olson (22:36):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (22:37):
That's the scary part.

Maleita Olson (22:38):
I think that is the scary part, and I think that, you know, it reminds me of this parenting magazine I read when my oldest was a baby, you know, when you're a new mom, and you read everything in sight, because you don't-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (22:49):
(Laughs) Yeah.

Maleita Olson (22:49):
... feel like you have any clue. Which you don't, but that's part of it, right?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (22:53):
And then you get clues, and then you're like-

Maleita Olson (22:54):
Then you get clues.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (22:54):
... they're wrong. Um (laughs)...

Maleita Olson (22:55):
So anyway, but I remember... This is so simple, but I remember reading this article that said, "Are you not letting your child make a mess because that mess is harmful to them, or because you don't wanna clean it up?"

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:10):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (23:11):
And I thought, oh, my God. You know, like, in other words, are you letting your kid ex-, not obviously for real. I mean, they're talking about, you know (laughs) food mess on the tray of, of the, of the high chair.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:22):
Nic's room upstairs (laughs).

Maleita Olson (23:24):
Um, but, you know, but, but I think it, to me, it's also metaphorical. It's like, are you willing to let them make a mess because you may have to come in behind? That's been our role, right?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:36):
Mm-hmm, right.

Maleita Olson (23:36):
Our role as parents is to come in behind, and then... So it's almost like... I think, I know for myself, I've been in this hyper-control mode, because, like, well, that's too much work. So, let me just prevent that thing from happening at all-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:46):
Yeah. Yeah.

Maleita Olson (23:47):
... so that I don't have to support you in the mess that you doing what you think is right is going to do. But then, I'm preventing you from learning, right? I, I'm-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:56):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (23:56):
... doing it for me. I mean, I don't mean to do it for me, you know.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Maleita Olson (23:59):
But I'm-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:00):
But you also have-

Maleita Olson (24:01):
... doing it for me.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:02):
... and you also have these other things going on. You know, Nick's disability is not the only item on my personal menu.

Maleita Olson (24:09):
No.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:10):
You know, you have work. You have other children. You have your own health. You have your spouse. Like, we all, there's nobody who's, you know, dedicated solely to the welfare of the one person. You actually have other stuff going on, and it's okay for, I think, the, the Nick of the world to be, you know, all along the spectrum of number one right now, but number seven later on, and number... You know-

Maleita Olson (24:34):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:34):
... and that that's okay, too, because I also think about the message I'm sending to my daughter, who will likely have a lot more to do with his life when I'm gone, um, and saying, "Yeah, he's the only thing that matters. He's the only thing. You have to make sure. You have to make sure." I even think about, you know, when I'm telling, telling tales, when we're talking on the phone or something. It's like, well, you know, don't make this sound like, well, this is what you're gonna have to deal with. It's like, no, you know, just, just find that balance of, of honesty and, and I'm just telling a story, you know, like, not attached to, like, this is what I'm assuming for you.

Maleita Olson (25:10):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:11):
I'm giving her that, that freedom to, to interpret it for when she needs it later on, um, but, you know, my assumptions will generationally pass on. I mean, I was thinking, my own mother, were she alive today, I don't know what she would've said about Nick living here. She would've been like, "But he's not gonna be safe," you know.

Maleita Olson (25:30):
( Laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:30):
And I don't think she would've wanted Courtney to leave home until she was married, because that's that generation, you know?

Maleita Olson (25:36):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:36):
So you think about the generational pieces, the cultural pieces of why people do say, "Oh, I could never do that."

Maleita Olson (25:42):
Well, I think you articulated one thing that I've noticed a lot, because I do a lot of work with something called family navigation, where I try to help families figure out, you know, what services are available in the adult system. Because it is, as you know-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:53):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (25:53):
... and that's a whole nother podcast. It's-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:54):
(Laughs)

Maleita Olson (25:55):
... it's a service cliff, you know, or it feels like it, at least.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:58):
That's another episode we're gonna do later on, yeah.

Maleita Olson (25:59):
I know. I know (laughs).

Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:59):
Because I think

Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:00):
I think it's so important.

Maleita Olson (26:01):
But I think that, one of the things I've noticed the most is when you talk about, especially, um, you know, my husband's older than me, so his- his father is, you know, the Depression-era baby. He thinks we- we're blessed that he's still alive at 90-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:15):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (26:15):
... he'll be 93 in a couple of weeks. But that generation, o- of whom now they're, you know, either becoming- they're passing, or they're too sickly to take care of, uh, their generation was so ingrained not to depend on the d- government-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:30):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (26:30):
... and to- that it was their responsibility. Like, it's like, you take care of your own.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:34):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (26:35):
You take care of your own. But what we have to sort of start- so, we have to see how that interplays, because sometimes, for us, that's underneath it. It's like, you're f- you're failing as a mother, or as a parent, whatever, or w- caregiver, if you don't, to your point, put every ounce into your- your loved one.

(26:55):
And yet, by doing that, you're not allowing, you know, that s- that metaphor of it takes a village. Like, you're being the village. And- and you're- you're putting them in a really tenuous situation, because, you know, and yourself. You're living with that fear, "Well, what if something happens to me?" Because you haven't built a solid foundation. You really want to build a foundation that you can step out of, so that the foundation isn't rocked-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:21):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (27:21):
... when you're not part of it. And so, even though we've been taught to sort of- you know, like, sort of a martyr syndrome. And I don't mean that as a disrespectful thing.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:29):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (27:30):
But it's sort of like, my job is to do complete and utter, and total sa- sac- sacrifice in, in-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:36):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (27:36):
... service. That's what we define love as. I define love as complete and pure self-sacrifice.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:44):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (27:45):
And that's what has- I think, has to get reevaluated. Loving is also allowing them to have other relationships.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:51):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (27:51):
Loving is also allowing them to fail, allowing them to risk, allowing them to have a life different, that doesn't need us.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:58):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (27:59):
That's a gift. And- and we have to shift ... It's a complete shifting. It's a- and you have to gr- and the other part is you have to grieve it. Uh, that was something you and I talked about, um, a couple of months ago, when y- when we were chatting, was, I think sometimes ... I know for me, like I've- I'm- I have my third- third kid that's going to college. So I'm gonna have three kids in college in a month.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:22):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (28:22):
And, uh-

Speaker 1 (28:22):
That's a lotta kids!

Maleita Olson (28:22):
It's a lotta- uh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
(laughs).

Maleita Olson (28:24):
So that's a whole another topic for another day. But anyway.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
[inaudible 00:28:26], really.

Maleita Olson (28:26):
Um, so I've got three kids in college, and then I have a 12-year-old at home. But as I'm kind of like, getting in touch with the three kids going to college, I- I'm just like, "What do we do?"

Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:36):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (28:38):
And- and I think because we hadn't had the opportunity to develop who we are, separate, we don't know who we are, and that's scary. And so, it's just easier to just stay in the routine of what we always did, because that fills the time.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:54):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (28:54):
But it's like, if we don't, then we have this time on our hands, and what do I like? I don't know.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:59):
I don't remember! ( laughs).

Maleita Olson (29:00):
I don't remember, right. It's all- it's all pre-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:03):
Yeah. Yeah.

Maleita Olson (29:03):
... the birth-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:04):
That's the- that question you said, like, "What do you want?" And I just sat there, going- dead air, that's it there, that's my dead- dead air. Um, yeah. And that's it's not a selfish question, and it's not a-

Maleita Olson (29:17):
Mm-hmm.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:18):
... it's just a question. And it's not- it's a natural question. It's not, you know, I don't- it's just what you get to ask.

Maleita Olson (29:25):
But I think for myself, I've- I've shied away from the question, because it's just easier to just keep filling, filling, filling, filling, filling. 'Cause if I fill the space, I don't have to deal-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:35):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (29:35):
... with that question.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:36):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (29:37):
If that makes sense.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:38):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (29:38):
Like, it's- it's easier to put it all out there. It's- it's more of a challenge to ask yourself that question. And sometimes, we're just too exhausted to take the challenge.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (29:47):
Yeah. Because it's s- I mean, this is a- a layer of exhaustion that, you know, sometimes it feels like it's supposed to just sort of dissipate as our children move away from us, physically, or whatever, and that it's so prolonged. And, I'm not getting any younger, you know? So it gets like, "Wow. Wow, this is new." You know?

(30:05):
Um, so what- what are your thoughts on, like, well, what do you do, to sort of put that on your own plate and say, "You know what? I'm so- this is a good thing", to- to differentiate myself from this particular son or daughter, um, to individuate, to create a w- a way to have a- a- boundaries that I can feel okay about.

Maleita Olson (30:33):
So I think there's two different levels. I think one is the fun. Like, you c- you really should, you know, explore, and just, you know, go back to things you used to do, or- or try new things, you know? I- a- and just explore and see what you enjoy. And I think that's part of it. I think that, again, part of that parenting script is that we're not, you know, when we're self-sacrificing, we're not allowed to have- have our own enjoyment.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (30:59):
Mm- hmm.

Maleita Olson (31:00):
And that, if we have our own enjoyment, we've somehow sacrificed something to th- to the-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (31:04):
Yeah, yeah.

Maleita Olson (31:05):
... other person, which- which kinda reminds me of the metaphor you were talking about, vacation.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (31:08):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (31:08):
If I'm enjoying myself- I mean, he was pro- he was probably more than enjoying himself.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (31:12):
Oh, yeah.

Maleita Olson (31:12):
But you're just like, "I- I can't have joy and fulfillment, separate."

Geralyn Arango-Deely (31:16):
Yeah, listeners, this is embarrassing. Um, (laughs), I- uh, scheduled a vacation when Nick was away, which is at camp, which is really no big deal. But some of his favorite people were on that all of four-day vacation. And my sister was just teasing me about it this weekend. She goes, "You were so guilty! You were feeling so guilty." Like, you were- his sister was gonna be there, and- and her husband, and the baby, and A Gail that she loves- he loves so much. And it was like, "Oh, my God, what have I done?"

(31:47):
And it was like, it took four days, you know? And it took me a little while to just be like, "Snap out of it!" And it was- and it took me f- a long- you know, it was just ridiculous. And I was kind of like, "No, well, there'll be other four days. There'll be other- he's havin' a good time. I didn't leave him by the side of the road." You know?

(32:04):
And it was as- this really awful ex- a good example of not being able to kind of separate. And it's like, "Well, he has to be here." And it's like, "Maybe next time."

(32:15):
And that was, like, so simple. And yet, I'm still wading through that, like, "What was I feeling so bad about?" And it was like, "Well, I know what I was feeling bad about." But did I need to feel that way?

Maleita Olson (32:25):
No, you definitely didn't. And I think part of that is also, you know, more than we can get into here, but I think it's part of our- our doing our own emotional work to see where that comes from. So, I know for-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (32:36):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (32:36):
... myself, you know, if there are times that, you know, in my own life that I was like, "Oh, I wish my parent had been here" or, "I wish my parent"- if you had any of that sort of lacking-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (32:48):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (32:49):
... you know, just one piece. It could be as simple as, "I wish my parents came to more of my concerts" or, "I wish my parents came to more of my baseball games", or whatever.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (32:57):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (32:57):
When you have that, like, "I wish my parent more", we tend to overcompensate and be afraid that, you know, we- w- it's almost like we have to be the omnipresent parent-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:08):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (33:09):
... to compensate for s- but that's us. That's about us.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:13):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (33:13):
That's about something in us, that somehow, if I am that omnipresent parent, if I dedicate myself, that that's going to heal, you know, my sadness that-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:22):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (33:23):
... you know, a few baseball games got- got missed, or-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:25):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (33:25):
... something more extreme. If it's more extreme, if you really did have any kind of an upbringing where one or both of your caregivers or parents were not as present as you needed them to be, or not as present as you wanted them to be, one of the coping strategies we do is to just become that omnipresent parent. And- and so, sometimes it's about doing our own work, to see what's underlying it. Because just saying you're gonna shift it, sometimes it can shift it in your head but it doesn't shift it in your heart. And it's really-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:54):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (33:54):
... gonna- it's really that heart shifting that-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (33:56):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (33:56):
... has to happen, for you to really have the strength to- to make the real difference. 'Cause head shifting-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:01):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (34:01):
... is fleeting. You know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:02):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (34:02):
It's like, it doesn't-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:03):
And that might not even happen, (laughs).

Maleita Olson (34:05):
Yeah, so it's- so head shifting's a good first start, 'cause you're like-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:08):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (34:08):
... "Ooh, I need to go here." But then you need to figure out, if you get stuck, why are you stuck?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:12):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (34:13):
You know? Like, if you- if you have this new concept, "Oh, I'm going to not feel guilty", you c- (laughs) guilt is not something you choose, (laughs).

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:20):
(laughs).

Maleita Olson (34:20):
Guilt is something you feel. That's a heart thing, right? So you can't talk yourself out of guilt. You can't just shut it off like a light switch.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:27):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (34:27):
So, you sometimes have to see, "Well, where is that coming from?"

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:30):
Huh.

Maleita Olson (34:30):
(laughs).

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:32):
(laughs).

Maleita Olson (34:32):
Sorry.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (34:34):
(laughs). No, it's true, though. It's true. And, you know, and I don't like to think about that too. And, uh, actually something came to me as I was listening to you. But anyway, that's a different podcast too.

(34:43):
Um, I guess, ah. Still the- the question that I think about, as I say the older I get, um, is, how- what do we do with the fact that, I mean, I feel like I think about preparing for me not being here at all, for some reason more than I used to. I never used to think about it much th- until- I mean, for one thing I guess, he lost a parent when he was 16. You know, my children lost their dad, she was- my daughter was 19 and he- Nick was 16. And you know, so there's like, one down. And when I'm gone, that's it, you know?

(35:23):
And so, how- where does all of this fit in, and what do you do with all of this when you realize that, you know, I- that h- le- my- both of my children will outlive me. How do- I dunno. I don't even know what that question is. But it's like, how does that make it harder, what do you think about? Um, which also leads me to think about siblings and what, you know, what to leave them.

Maleita Olson (35:52):
So, I think you're articulating two different things.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (35:55):
I am. (laughs).

Maleita Olson (35:55):
The first- (laughs), it's okay.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (35:55):
I am.

Maleita Olson (35:57):
No worries. The first is just that- and we'll start with that, it's just that impending, a- I hate to use the word, except that that's kinda how I feel people have expressed it to me, doom.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:09):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (36:09):
You know, there's like this- it's like a d- it's a Doomsday catastrophe that you're trying to avoid. Which is, I'm not here, and his life's gonna fall apart. He's going to be subject to abuse, he's going to be subject-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:21):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (36:22):
... to whatever, he's not gonna have a place to live. Whatever those things are, because that person, you know, your loved one, isn't indep- independent, which is a whole another topic too. I don't- I- so, actually, maybe it's not. Maybe it's relevant to right here. I don't think the goal is ever for them to be independent, it's to be interdependent.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:40):
Inter. Yeah.

Maleita Olson (36:41):
Yeah. You know, that's a big one.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:42):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (36:42):
Um, in- that we've made a- finally made a shift for in the field. And I think that it's a good way, as a- as a mom or a parent, to think about it, because if they're interdependent on a network of people, and you've set people in their lives. Whether it's a sibling, some siblings want nothing to do with them.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:58):
Sure.

Maleita Olson (36:58):
That's okay.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (36:58):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (36:59):
You know? There are agencies out there where you can appoint a guardian, you can appoint- you know, there's different-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:05):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (37:05):
... ways to go about it so that there's- I think what people are looking for, is there always someone that's gonna make sure they're safe, and always someone who's going to make sure-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:14):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (37:14):
... their best interests are at heart, because they can't articulate it for themselves. That's really what it all-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:18):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (37:19):
... I think if you take all that worry and all that catastrophizing, it all boils down to two things. One, nobody's gonna love 'em like I love. No, they won't.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:27):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (37:28):
That's okay, because nobody loves me like my mom, but when my mom passes away, I- I mean, I have lots of people that love me now.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:35):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (37:37):
So, it's about building that network. The more you and your loved one are the only two people in the universe, the smaller that network is.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:46):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (37:46):
You know? So-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (37:46):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (37:47):
... it's about sort of shifting the- the- the catastrophizing thoughts that are- first of all, they're gonna be normal. I just say like, normalize them. This is normal. Of course I'm gonna fear for that; that's a normal fear. That is an absolutely normal thing that I would fear for that.

(38:03):
Okay. Now, what does it look like to work on it? What it looks like to work on it is just to continue building that network, continuing to build the network of- of relationships that that person has. You know, I- I think about, there is this, um, one individual that I've- that- that we've served for a long time, and then we- the person just m- moved to another residential provider. I- I'm guaranteed I'm gonna be part of that person's life. I- and I was a paid provider. But my personal relationship with that family is so in-depth that, if something were to ev- I mean, I'm gonna step in, because there's just some unique things there that I just-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (38:40):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (38:40):
... you know, I- I fight for that person. I fight for that person because I care that much. So, your-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (38:47):
Without billable hours.

Maleita Olson (38:48):
Without billable hours, (laughs).

Geralyn Arango-Deely (38:48):
So, thank you, nurse, (laughs). That's what we all want.

Maleita Olson (38:50):
But they're out there.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (38:51):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (38:51):
People are out there that wanna do that. But- but the-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (38:53):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (38:54):
... the smaller we make their world, the less opportunity we have to come and touch with those kind of people that are willing to do

Maleita Olson (39:00):
... that, and willing to be able to care about them the w- you know, not us. They will never be us, and if that's what we're looking for, we'll be stuck 'cause that doesn't happen, but people that are gonna care about them, you know, and it's okay if you're s- if the siblings don't want anything. I mean, it's sad. It's, it's heartbreaking, but it happens. It happens a lot. As a matter of fact, statistically, if your child has autism, it happens way more, like it's way, way more common for, um, the sibling of an autistic individual because they don't have social skills, you know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (39:29):
Right.

Maleita Olson (39:29):
They're not the ones coming up and giving their siblings hugs.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (39:31):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (39:31):
And so siblings f-find it difficult to feel-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (39:34):
Right.

Maleita Olson (39:34):
... connection sometimes, and so they just, they don't want that piece of it. Um, it doesn't have to be a sibling, it can be anybody and it doesn't even have to be a family member. Or it can be a family member, like I know know for myself, my, my husband, when I met him... You might even know this story, Ger. Um, so when I met my husband, I found out that his mother's oldest sister had been institutionalized at the age of 5.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:01):
Oh my.

Maleita Olson (40:02):
And had, was now living in a group home, and I was like, oh, great. Let's go see her. And, and my husband's like, no.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:09):
Oh.

Maleita Olson (40:10):
Oh, no, we don't do that. Like that was just part of the family culture.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:13):
Okay.

Maleita Olson (40:14):
Um, we don't do that, we don't talk to her, that'll upset her. That'll make her feel worse. Like it was just a really... And it was so unsettling for me.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:21):
Sure.

Maleita Olson (40:22):
But when that generation had um, passed away, they, you know, um, they passed... Uh, I had someone come up to me and say, it's okay, you can do it now. And I went. I mean, I'm the, I'm the spouse. Like I married into this family.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:36):
[inaudible 00:40:36]. You're like...

Maleita Olson (40:37):
I'm like bing. I- I'm there. And I went to every ISP meeting, and I went to everything until she passed away at a really natural age in her eighties.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:45):
Uh-huh.

Maleita Olson (40:45):
You know what I mean? And I was like, an advocate. My kids went there every Christmas, we brought her Christmas gifts. And that-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:49):
And was it something, did it upset her? Did it, and I mean, was it something-

Maleita Olson (40:52):
No.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (40:52):
That you... And even if it was, maybe there was a natural element of, yeah, I'm gonna be upset, who is this? What's going on? You upset my world. And then you kind of say, I'm gonna keep coming back.

Maleita Olson (41:01):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (41:02):
And a person warms to it and-

Maleita Olson (41:06):
Yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (41:06):
You have a...

Maleita Olson (41:06):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (41:07):
Sad, happy ending.

Maleita Olson (41:08):
But here I am. My, my other point is like, like it doesn't have to be someone you know in your, in your universe now. Someone can step into your universe who's also gonna care about them. That was my point. I mean, here I am, stepping into this woman's universe, she was 30 years my senior. You know what I mean? And I, I became her big advocate, so, so there's got... There's room for that, you know, people are good, there are good people out there and so, we just have to keep building that network and believing that that part's gonna happen.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (41:36):
Yeah. And I guess also then being willing to give back into other people's networks too.

Maleita Olson (41:41):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (41:41):
Because that, that piece is to say, you know, everybody's, you know, this is my tribe, but I'm now part of your tribe too. And so, I have some, I may have some work to do too, but that's okay, because it's all kind of building of itself. And that, I mean, that's a whole nother podcast too. It's like tapping into my own comfort and discomfort with that, as a person [inaudible 00:42:01] you know, can I do that? And it's like, go for it. Give it a shot, give it just a...

(42:05):
Same way that you're not allowed to fail, I'm not allowed to fail too? I'm like, what if I invite somebody and they don't come. Uh, world didn't end. You know? And so, I guess we have to challenge ourselves too and step out of the roles that we gave ourselves, or the roles that society gave us when we fell out of the helicopters. Um, but oh, ah. Love this. Anything else? Did I skip anything that you'd want to add in?

Maleita Olson (42:33):
I just want, I- I think, I think I just want to kind of round back to the whole idea of, you know, I wish it didn't, but I think there's two pieces. I- is that guilt is such a driving force of motherhood these days. And again, as, as we, to kind of round back to where we started, it's not just mothers of special needs kids-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (42:53):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (42:54):
It's... I think it's a very pervasive thing, that it's like, we're not perfect, we're not doing it just right and like, I- I think a couple things that, in my journey as a parent, was like, your parent, you... Couple things. First of all, I walked into workshop sometimes and uh, I do this workshop about the transition into adulthood, um, for parents of children with autism or young adults, teens, with autism. And one of the things I'll say to the group, I'll say, um, how many of your kids are really giving you a hard time and just will not comply with anything you want anymore.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:29):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (43:29):
And of course a whole bunch of people will raise their hands. I'm like, awesome.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:32):
(laughs)

Maleita Olson (43:34):
And they're looking at me like, what are talking about? I'm like, this is awesome.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:37):
That's what they're supposed to be doing, kind of.

Maleita Olson (43:38):
That's what they're supposed to be doing.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:40):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (43:40):
That's what adolescents do.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:42):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (43:42):
'Cause that's how they separate. I don't want you. You know, it's like, I don't want you, Mom. I don't want you anymore. Hooray. Celebrate it. Celebrate-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:51):
You got it, you go, after all I've done for you.

Maleita Olson (43:53):
I know, I know, I know. Like so do us neurotypicals. That's what we do.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (43:57):
Yes, yes, yes.

Maleita Olson (43:58):
It's like, I- I, we have to let, we have to launch them and then hope they come back, right? It's like, it's just, it's just-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:03):
But if we don't take it personally...

Maleita Olson (44:05):
Don't take it personally. So that's my one thing.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:07):
Work on that.

Maleita Olson (44:07):
Yeah, not take it personally. Like if they are conflicting and you are butting heads, then they are moving, delayed all it be, they are moving through their adolescence and that is really great. And one of the things we say on a more clinical way, um, to throw it in there, is what people are trying to resolve at that, no matter who they are, is can I love you and still be mad at you?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:30):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (44:31):
And can you love me? Can you be mad at me and still love me? And that's sort of the, the two things that we're trying to hold at the same time because as children, we're very absolute. If you're mad at me, you must not love me.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:42):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (44:43):
And, we're try- we're trying to help people to embrace that you can be both, you know? I- One of my favorite things that somebody say, you are going to disappoint your children constantly.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:54):
Yeah. It's embarrassing.

Maleita Olson (44:56):
I'm like what? I was like, what? Yeah, they're, they're not gonna like you all the time. What?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (44:59):
(laughs)

Maleita Olson (45:01):
You know?

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:01):
Me?

Maleita Olson (45:02):
And of course, like, we know that's the truth, but then when it happens, we're like, I'm screwed up, I screwed up. And it's like, no. This is just-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:08):
This is just what happens.

Maleita Olson (45:09):
This is just what happens. It's just part of life.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:11):
You think you didn't do it to your parents? (laughs)

Maleita Olson (45:12):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:14):
I guess they weren't as interested.

Maleita Olson (45:16):
(laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:17):
They weren't taking it as like, this means I'm a bad human being?

Maleita Olson (45:20):
Correct.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (45:21):
And I-

Maleita Olson (45:21):
And that's what I want people to, to work through is to, to just say, I don't have to be guilty. I don't have to be guilty. You know, I'm working with a family right now that's in the process of looking at alternative arrangement, mostly because of the prompting of her children because she has a physical health issue and you know, and it's just... You know her husband passed away, it's her and her son, and he's a 24/7, you know, care and they're like, it's, you know, it's okay. It's okay to say, I can't do it anymore. It's not... But what's more important than it being okay and you don't have to feel guilty, just see it as a gift.

(45:57):
Like one of the things I emphasize to people is, you know, if you can transition them to some kind of living arrangement without you, y- you don't want them to double up. Like one of the... In their grief. So we, we do workshops also on the, you know, top stressors in life. Well, one of them's a new job, divorce is one.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (46:17):
Right.

Maleita Olson (46:17):
Um, but, but the other two main ones are, you know, of course, loss of a loved one.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (46:23):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (46:23):
And moving.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (46:24):
Yes. Yes.

Maleita Olson (46:25):
Right? So you don't want them to double up. You don't want their whole world to change because they just lost you and now they just lost where they're living.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (46:34):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (46:34):
That's not fair.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (46:36):
Mm-hmm.

Maleita Olson (46:36):
And it's just not fair to them because if that way you have some insight and you can help them transition, you can be part of the transition because they're so dependent on you, so if it's you and your loved one, or you and a partner and your loved one, or whoever is in your household, placing them in some sort of living arrangement where they can get support without you, before you're too sickly to help in that transition-

Geralyn Arango-Deely (47:01):
Yes.

Maleita Olson (47:01):
Is critical. I cannot emphasize it enough. And it's a gift. And it's a gift for you and a gift for them. But I think what happens is like, well, then I- I'm gonna get to live my own life, and, and yes.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (47:13):
Yeah.

Maleita Olson (47:14):
And you deserve it.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (47:14):
Yeah. Uh. So much to think about, so much to think about. Uh, that- that's why you're here, 'cause I knew you'd have all these, these-

Maleita Olson (47:21):
(laughs)

Geralyn Arango-Deely (47:22):
Things to put it all together for us and so, uh, I hope we'll figure out another topic for you to weigh in on because I just have found myself, found this really, really powerful, as I always do talking to you.

Maleita Olson (47:35):
Thank you.

Geralyn Arango-Deely (47:35):
And so I want to thank you, Maleita, for taking time to share all these insights, and I want to thank our listeners as well. Thank you for coming with me on our Parallel Paths today and I hope that you will like and follow our podcast. Tell your friends. Tell other families, tell other sibs, and I really hope that you will come back and return to listen for more stories and wisdom from people like you and me, and our loved ones with a disability, on our Parallel Paths. We'll see you next time.