Geralyn Arango-Deely (00:12): Hello, and welcome to season two of Our Parallel Paths - A Future For My Loved One With a Disability... And For Me! I'm your host, Dr. Geralyn Arango-Deely, Gerry, and this podcast is about just what the title says - the parallel paths of family members, certainly parents, sometimes siblings as parents age or pass on, and their loved ones with intellectual disabilities. I'm a parent myself, and I have questions. (00:41): Our Parallel Paths is about creating a promising future for our adult family members with an intellectual disability, and a promising future for ourselves as we evolve alongside them. There's more than one path, more than one future to talk about, and that's why we're here. Some remarkable people share their stories on Our Parallel Paths. And I really always, always hope that the stories resonate with you and give you ideas and hope for your future. (01:11): I am so excited to introduce today's guest Eric Goll. A friend, actually Darcy Elks - remember Darcy from season one. Darcy told me about Empowering Ability, which is Eric's website, and the guides, the podcast, the webinars, the videos that are available to all of us on the site. So I checked it out, and Darcy was right. Empoweringability.org is a tremendous resource for helping families to support their loved ones in building what Eric calls "an awesome ordinary life". I'd like one of those myself. (01:48): Eric is a sibling, he is Sarah's brother. And so as I read through his bio on the Empowering Ability website, I, I found that I wanted to connect Eric with us here on Our Parallel Paths, because Eric's on this journey, too. I wanted to learn more about Eric's "awesome ordinary life", as well as Sarah's. I'm curious about Eric's backstory, since it seems like Sarah and Eric are kind of creating awesome ordinary lives for each other. So welcome, Eric. How are you today, (laughs)? Eric Goll (02:24): Hey, Gerry, I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. And thank you for the amazing introduction. I feel like I need to take you around whenever I'm, you know, doing any talking or anything (laughs)- Geralyn Arango-Deely (02:33): (laughs). Eric Goll (02:34): ... to have you introduce me, so thank you so, so much. That was amazing. Geralyn Arango-Deely (02:37): I'll be your, your, your spokes, spokes model. Um, well, here's the thing. Um, hearing the sibling perspective is so important, for parents like me, and for other siblings like yourself. And so I'm so glad that what you chose to talk about, sibling perspectives, about out of all the possible topics that I offered you, I'm really glad you decided on that, because I'm curious. To, to start, what do you think is the importance of the sibling voice? Um, is it one we're hearing enough, and what do we need to hear? Eric Goll (03:12): Yeah, that's a great question. I, I don't... You know, when we talk about people that have developmental disabilities, we're either talking about, you know, those people and self-advocates or are, uh... Usually it's mom, like, (laughs)- Geralyn Arango-Deely (03:25): (laughs). Eric Goll (03:26): ... mom's usually the one that's, um, you know, helping to, to lead the pathway forward. And, um, you know, I think there's a lot of siblings that are interested in the conversation, maybe that wanna have the conversation, but not sure, um, maybe how to have the conversation, uh, who, who to have the conversation with, even if it's our own family. Um, and I don't think it's very obvious, um, for a lot of siblings on how to... maybe how to get involved, uh, especially when, you know, uh, mom or dad or, you know, parents are, are super involved and, and leading the way, it can be challenging to, um, to enter into some of those conversations. Geralyn Arango-Deely (04:11): Okay. Um, was it... for you, was it sort of assumed that you were gonna take on the role of supporting Sarah or is that something you kind of fell into? Tell me a little about Sarah and you? Eric Goll (04:23): Yeah. Yeah. So Sarah's, um, my older sister. Um, and, yeah, I think in my family, it was kind of unspoken for a long time, like, it's just me and my sister, right? So, um, it was just the two of us - um, so no other, other siblings. So I guess, my parents kind of sorta had some conversations with me in my late teens, like my parents were redoing their will, and they're like, "Who do we put down as, you know, executor and those sorts of things?" And like, you know, even I was, you know, I think teenager, is, is like pretty young to be put in that, uh- Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:00): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (05:01): ... role or position, right? But, um, I e- my... I ended up in, in that role and my parents kind of had the con- a conversation with me at that point of time. And, you know, they had made that decision, right? I wasn't really involved in, in that decision. Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:15): Okay. Eric Goll (05:16): Um, but other than that, there wasn't a lot of conversation about it. And then, um, you know, I think the conversation picked up again, when I was in my late 20s, when my sister, um, and my mom kind of had enough of each other, and my mom was just really, uh, physically and, and emotionally, uh, and mentally burnt out and couldn't provide the care that she had been providing for my sister- Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:45): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (05:45): ... any longer and that was in 2015. And, uh- Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:47): Okay. And how old was Sarah at that point? Eric Goll (05:49): So she would have been, like, early 30s. Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:52): Early 30s. Okay. Eric Goll (05:52): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (05:53): So, yeah, a while then. Yeah, okay. Eric Goll (05:55): Yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, there had been a good 10 years where my sister was... you know, had finished school and was at home and, you know, spent most of her time at home, and my mom and sister, you know, spending a ton of time together. And, um, you know, uh, my mom kind of just broke down, and she called me one day when I was at work, you know, like, in the afternoon. I was like, "Okay, it's a little weird that my mom's calling me right now," but I answered the phone. I'm like, "Hey, mom, what's up?" And the first thing that she says to me, she says, "I can't do it anymore." And I knew... like, like, I felt my stomach drop, right? I knew intuitively- Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:28): Wow. Eric Goll (06:29): ... what she meant, I was like, "What, what do you mean mom?" And she's like, "Sarah has to move out. Like, I, I can't do it." And, um, and that was when I felt like, "Okay, I, I need to make a decision," right? Do I kind of continue on the path that I'm on just focusing on me, right? Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:48): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (06:49): Like, you know, young, 20's and, I was focused on career, you know- Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:53): Right. Eric Goll (06:54): ... friends, girlfriend, those sorts of things- Geralyn Arango-Deely (06:55): Uh-huh. Eric Goll (06:56): ... um, and not super involved with kind of my sister and, and family life. Like, you know, I was kind of like, sibling relationship, but nothing more than that. Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:05): Okay. Eric Goll (07:05): And then, um, yeah, so I had to make a decision, right. Like, I saw my mom struggling, my sister's struggling, and it was, "Do I wanna get involved in a different way?" And I made the decision to do that, just because, um, yeah, my family was (laughs) in, in bad shape at that point in time. Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:21): Okay. Okay. Wow. So, um, and what line of work were you in at that point? Eric Goll (07:27): Yeah, so at that point in time, I was working for a small tech company doing like sales and marketing. Um, so I've done like a variety of jobs, just trying things out, I suppose. Um, but mostly in like... I don't know, kind of business operations, that sort of thing. So there was a lot of learning that I had to do (laughs) in order to help my family and, uh, and move forward, so. Geralyn Arango-Deely (07:52): I mean, I feel like part of the sales and marketing, um, of a product would be a... was something that you were able to harness, i- but you still had all this other sort of disability stuff to learn, uh- Eric Goll (08:06): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (08:06): ... Canadian style, 'cause you're in Canada, but, um, it feels like you s- do you feel like you brought some of what you knew and [inaudible]- Eric Goll (08:15): Yeah, for sure, for sure. Like, you know, I think everything I've learned along the way through different jobs has been transferable in, in different ways. And, um, you know, I think like, the sales and marketing piece has helped me to further reach families, um, and to, uh, create a bigger impact that way. So it's been really helpful. Um, but on kind of, you know, in the field of developmental disability and learning best practices, like that was, uh... and I had to go do a lot of learning (laughs) around that and started with, you know, applying what I was learning with my family and, and kind of from there [inaudible 00:08:52] going further beyond that. But, um, yeah, and I, I think like, the approach that I, that I take now with families is, um... you know, it's applicable, really anywhere in the world, because it comes from the social model of disability- Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:06): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (09:06): ... rather than just looking at, well, what are your, you know, local supports and resources? So it's think... it's, it's kind of bigger level thinking, and then it's... and then you kind of go to okay, how can you leverage what's, what's available locally? Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:20): So for our listeners, can you talk a little bit about that social model of disability? Not everybody's familiar with that term? Eric Goll (09:26): Yeah. So what do I mean by that? Geralyn Arango-Deely (09:31): What do you mean by that, (laughs)? Eric Goll (09:35): (laughs), so it's just thinking about, um, what are the most important things in, in our life? And what are those, uh, I guess, kind of life domains? So, when I work with... You know, when I started working with my sister, we're thinking about, um, you know, capability to start off with, and I think, often as families we talk about independence. I'm kind of... I kind of use those words interchangeably. But how can We Eric Goll (10:00): For Sarah to grow her capability, because people with development disabilities are vastly underestimated. Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:08): Mm-hmm. I agree. Eric Goll (10:09): (laughs) Right? Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:10): [inaudible 00:10:10] Eric Goll (10:11): So how can we, how can we support them, how can we you know, how can we support Sarah to grow? Right? Um, and a lot of that was thinking about our family unit and how do we change? Because, were, we were actually the ones holding my sister back. Right? Because you know, I think often we just do too much for our loved one, and don't give them the opportunity to try, and the support to uh, to uh... Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:37): And to make mistakes like everybody else does. Eric Goll (10:39): Yeah, exactly, right? Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:40): Yeah. Eric Goll (10:41): And you know, fall down scrape your knee. Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:43): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (10:43): And what can you learn? Geralyn Arango-Deely (10:44): Yeah. Eric Goll (10:44): By going through that process right? So, um, so you know you don't need to necessarily, you know uh, you know that's not about getting more paid support. You know kind of like your family unit and you know, the interactions that are happening within, within your family. Um, and then it's looking at uh, you know I guess, kind of that's where I'm trying to get at in terms of the social, the social angle. And then the other, the other really key piece for, for all of us, and especially true for people with development disabilities, is relationships. (11:17): Right? So there's uh, I, I can't remember the name in the research study, but it looked at um, somebody that uh, you know that I've had on my podcast a couple of times. Al Condeluci talks about this, that he often- Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:30): Yeah. Eric Goll (11:31): And I think he was involved in it. Um some of your listeners are maybe familiar with Al. Geralyn Arango-Deely (11:35): I know that name, yeah. Yeah. Eric Goll (11:38): Um, yeah, so through a conversation with, with Al, um he was sharing this research study that he was involved with, and they, what they found was that people with developmental disabilities have one sixth the amount of social connection compared to an, the kind of typical person. So it looks like, you know on average, about 25 relationships um, for a person with developmental disability compared to 150. Uh, kind of the average person in, in society. Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:09): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (12:09): So, a def- a real deficit of, of relationship. Um, so, you know one of the things that, when we talk about the kind of social model of disability, it's, "How do we intentionally support people with developmental disabilities to build more relationships?" Um, and in non-paid ways, right? Maybe there's some paid support that helps to build those relationships, but we're not paying people to be friends with our loved ones. Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:34): Wow. Correct. They are paid to do that, and that's wonderful, but that cannot be the only relationship, no matter how much they love the person. When the paycheck goes, so do they. Eric Goll (12:46): Yes, exactly, right? And then, and then that often leaves a big hole. Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:50): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (12:51): Right? In, in our loved one's live, life. And trauma often, right? Like, "Well, where did my friend go?" Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:57): Yeah. Eric Goll (12:58): They did, they didn't even say bye. Geralyn Arango-Deely (12:59): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (13:00): Right? Geralyn Arango-Deely (13:00): I hear you. I have experienced it so many times with Nick, that it's like, "No, no, no, this is great but these folks, I love you all, but you're paid," and so we have to keep working on this piece. And then in adulthood, I mean it's been my experience that you know, the social connections are harder. Um, so there's not school contact, some things like that, so a person who might have been struggling with this in school might struggle even more. And in, like Nick's case, I'm kind of the caterer and the planner, and you know, we have to do all those things, but it's, it is for, it's real. It's a real need. And so, we have to be able to value the fact that it's not just paid support, it's great, but it's not friendship, and it's not relationship. Eric Goll (13:48): Exactly. Geralyn Arango-Deely (13:48): But it's also that, more work, you know? Eric Goll (13:50): Yeah. Yeah. So those are, I, that was a really long way of answering your question. Like, "What is the social model of disability?" But just some like, tangible examples of- Geralyn Arango-Deely (13:58): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Eric Goll (13:58): Of what it looks like. Geralyn Arango-Deely (14:00): Yeah, relationship-wise, relationships. Um, and, so when... so you started thinking about supporting Sarah at this, this pivotal moment, when your mom was just, was crashing. And so, kind of... what was the first, the first thing do you remember? Was the first thing that you did? Eric Goll (14:18): Yeah. Well... all that I knew at that point in time was that, people with developmental disabilities, when they're not living at home, they live in a group home. That's what I knew at that time. So we actually went down that route. Um, so, where I live in um, the province of Ontario in Canada, um... there is much more supply, or sorry, much more demand than supply. So there's a lot more people with developmental disabilities than there are group homes. Geralyn Arango-Deely (14:51): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (14:51): So I was like, it's like a 20 year, 25 year, 30 year so called wait list, but it's actually a crisis list, because- Geralyn Arango-Deely (14:58): That's so different than America, in the states, truly. Eric Goll (15:01): Yeah. So, yeah, I mean it's... it's, it's... most places in the world it's, it's like that. Right? So, um, you know we thought the you know so-called government sort of social system was gonna have our back, and there was no support there. And um, so once that was ruled out as an option, it was like, "Okay, well, what else, what else to be... you know what other options are there?" And um, I, we're fortunate enough that we had a, a family friend that, that I've known for a really long time, my parents have known for a long time. They had, they had two kids with developmental disabilities, and they had been pretty engaged with, in a, you know, in networking with other families and, and whatnot. (15:42): And had a conversation with um, with the mom, and she's like, "Well Eric, you need to talk to this person, this person, and this person." I was like, Okay! (laughs) So that sent me on a mission right? Geralyn Arango-Deely (15:54): Okay. Eric Goll (15:54): Um, so, and you know, super fortunate those people are open to talking with me, um, you know, you know... So first few people I talked to were Janet Cleese. I don't know if you know these people or not, but Janet Cleese, um who's been a huge mentor to me, um at Durham Family Resources. Uh, Michael Kendrick, um, who's, another been uh, uh... another person who's been a, a really big mentor to me. Um, and they were like, "Well, there's this whole other option Eric." Uh, of, helping of a person having their own life. Of, "Well, what would it look like for your sister to have her own home?" Um, you know, and maybe she lives with you know a neuro-typical roommate? Right? And I was like, "Huh." (16:36): Okay. What, what could that look like? Um, and then, you know just spending more time with them, having... starting a podcast to get more access to- Geralyn Arango-Deely (16:44): Uh huh. Eric Goll (16:44): New thinkers. Um, and to people that had been supporting people on a more, in a ordinary um, or you know, what you wanna call it, progressive path. Um, and uh, and just kind of continuing my learning there, going to different workshops and um, and then you know, it's... going back to that family that I mentioned, the family friends that I had two loved ones with developmental disabilities. They were on that ordinary path, so they were a great kind of example to look to where um, you know their son had a home of his own with a neuro-typical roommate. He had a support circle for I don't know, like, I guess now it's going on close to like 20 years. Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:26): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (17:27): Um, but I had actually been a part of his support circle, and I... for whatever reason, it didn't, I didn't realize that, that, that type of life was available to my sister until we were in this you know... uh kind of dire situation. Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:41): Wow. Wow. Okay. Um, so you went from kind of not really being involved at all, not knowing much at all, and really had this steep learning curve. Eric Goll (17:52): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (17:52): But, it... you also mentioned to, to parlay it into something bigger which is neat cause I mean in some ways, as you're helping Sarah have her awesome ordinary life, it's kind of creating a, an awesome ordinary life for you too! Eric Goll (18:11): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:11): And so, you know, what is, what do you wish... what, what does that even mean to you? I'm, I, or do you see that? I mean that, that jumped out of me. Eric Goll (18:22): Yeah, um, you know when I think about it, I feel like I've, I've been able to be on that kind of awesome ordinary life path pretty much all of my life, Because I've had access to those ordinary opportunities. whereas I, if I look at my sister's life path, she has not always had access to those ordinary opportunities, right? So the school system pushed her into a you know, uh, I'm going to put this in air quotes, "special needs" classroom. Geralyn Arango-Deely (18:57): Yeah. Eric Goll (18:58): Right? And, you know, my parents felt like the only option for her was, you know, to go to things like a day program, or the you know, on that special path. Geralyn Arango-Deely (19:12): Right. Eric Goll (19:12): Um, or you know, no one said I had to go on a you know, a special path, or uh, you know uh, a path that was different than everybody else. Geralyn Arango-Deely (19:21): What- yeah. Eric Goll (19:22): Um, so I've, I had the privilege of um, of having a lot more opportunity more access. And I think, you know as a sibling, I might not have acknowledged that. Um, you know up until maybe 30 years, like you know, my late 20s when I started doing this learning around developmental disability. But um, you know I think it was there under the surface, and I, I think that's there for many siblings, feeling a little bit of guilt of... it could show up as guilt, it could show up as other emotions. But you know, "Well I'm doing all these, you know, have Eric Goll (20:00): ... opportunity to do all of these amazing things and my loved one, or my- my sibling is at home, right? Or they're- Geralyn Arango-Deely (20:07): Yeah. Eric Goll (20:08): ... you know, you know, don't have the same opportunities. Geralyn Arango-Deely (20:12): Mkay. Okay. So, I mean, in all of this... and we asked the question that since it's Our Parallel Paths, what- what brings you strength? How do you take care of you? How do you stay strong as you're- you've, you know, got this tremendous project, this empoweringability. org with all the good stuff, plus you're supporting your- your sister... How's Mom doing? How do you stay strong? How do you, what brings you strength? Who brings you strength? Eric Goll (20:41): Yeah. That's a good question. (laughs) Um, it's... I mean, I think all... I... You know, I think it's... Again, a lot of the time when I work with families, it's- it's Mom, right? So, Mom's feeling kind of... I guess more of the stress, more of the emotions in- involved with, um, with, uh, with our loved ones. Um, I think for me, kind of going through it with my Mom, with my sister, for those maybe first four or five years, to help my sister, you know, eventually move outta Mom and Dad's place. My sister actually moved in with me for two years. Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:22): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (21:22): So that was a whole learning experience and then- Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:25): Ah. Eric Goll (21:25): ... um, after those two years, my sister, um, moved into her own place. But, um, going through all of that, I- I think was, um, I mean I learned a ton. Um, I learned a lot more about my sister and (laughs) my Mom but that was really hard. So, I think for me going through it, a big part of it was helping to bring more people in around my sister. So, supporting my sister to start her, um, support circle. Geralyn Arango-Deely (21:55): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (21:55): And, uh, engaging kind of intentionally engaging more people around my sister. Um, and then, getting the right types of supports, um, in place as well, um, around my sister. So, around, you know, personal care but also a big thing for me, like a ch- challenge for me that I found was that, uh, I had taken on the role of managing all my sister's supports, and, um, there was lots of conflicts that were coming up. So, what was happening was I wasn't able to be the sibling, I was like the support manager and my sister was coming to me with all these problems and all of our conversations were about support issues. Geralyn Arango-Deely (22:36): Ah. Eric Goll (22:36): It was really challenging to be, you know, in a sibling relationship. Um, so one of the things that's specifically been helpful for me in- in our situation, is, um... putting, you know, having someone in that kind of, uh, support manager type role so that they can talk about those things with my sister and then I can talk on a high level with that support manager about some of the things. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:00): Okay. Eric Goll (23:01): And my sister and I can have a sibling relationship. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:03): Okay. So you kinda brought it back down to I'm not the manager of your life. I am your brother. Eric Goll (23:07): Right. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:08): And so, okay, that's... That's good stuff because I mean I know for myself as the common law employer, I'm the person who manages all the staff and all that stuff. Eric Goll (23:15): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:16): And sometimes it's like, "Oh, I..." My son is living with his best buddy in, uh, his best friend in my old condo and I haven't seen him in five days and it's like, "Oh, you know what? I'd like to... I'd like, whoops. I'd like to see my son. I miss him." (laughs) Eric Goll (23:34): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:34): And so, um, it's, it is like how do you... You wanna have the typical relationship that you'd have with the person but then you also have this management role. So, good for you that you were able to sort of, parse it out. Um- Eric Goll (23:49): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:49): ... 'cause that's- that's... In the end, it- it's my sister. It's my brother. It's my son. You know? Eric Goll (23:54): Right. Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (23:55): And- Eric Goll (23:55): And I- I also get that like it's a privilege to be able to do that. Like, not everybody has access to that type of support or structure but, um, but that's one things that was kind of helpful for me and- and the relationship that my sister and I have. Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:10): Yeah. And yeah, because you do wanna have a relationship that's sort of the way it is, as if nothing were going (laughs) on, without all the other things. Um, other things that keep you strong, keep you going? Eric Goll (24:25): Yeah. Um, I think... I'm like a routine person. (laughs) Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:30): Okay. Eric Goll (24:32): So, like I find just, you know, getting exercise, getting good sleep, um, you know, uh, I- I try to meditate everyday. It doesn't always happen but, um, but those sorts of things, um, have definitely been... And eating well, those sorts of things. So, when I'm doing those things, I'm usually in pretty good shape, um, kind of emotionally, mentally, physically. Geralyn Arango-Deely (24:57): Okay. Okay, that's- that's kinda 101, you know? But I think it's so easily falls off the- the chart. Eric Goll (25:05): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:05): That it's like you have to keep kinda coming back to it. Um, yeah. (laughs) Life goal. Um, so (laughs) Eric Goll (25:11): (laughs) Geralyn Arango-Deely (25:14): So, something... What's something that you're kind of proudest of at this point, as you're on this path? Eric Goll (25:20): Yeah. Um... Well, I- I think I'm, you know... There's lots of things that I'm proud of. I'm super proud of my mom and my sister for how they have learned and grown over the last, you know, six or seven years. And, um, I guess how my sister has just continually been more open and, to change and to adapt, and, uh, to- to learn and to grow. Um, I'm pretty proud of, I guess, just, uh, like... Empowering Ability, in general, and where that's gone. So, I've been able to serve now over 500 families through, um, through my courses. Um, so I have a- a life planning course. So I've had over 500 families join that- Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:11): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (26:11): ... and just seeing the impact that that's had. Of families shifting from that, uh, lens of, okay, my loved one has to be doing the special things and that's the only option to now seeing that awesome ordinary life path with, you know, more ordinary relationships, growing their capability, you know, um, some folks even going to the point of creating a- a home with... Uh, their loved one creating a home of their own. Those sorts of things. Um, I'm super proud of that. Geralyn Arango-Deely (26:41): Uh, you should be. I- I really have done some of your stuff and printed out your stuff, and watched your stuff, and listened to your stuff, and it is really, um... It just gives you the sense, to me anyway, that it's- it's possible. It- it's work but there's a, there's... Thinking about these steps and a kind of seeing where you are along the way, and continuing to- to pursue that goal, you know? Um, and I love the fact that it's an awesome, ordinary life because an ordinary life is attainable. You know, it's not saying it has to be spectacular. It's saying it has to be good, you know? And that takes a bit of extra work and... I- I know I love that you're able to give us some tools to help with that. And so, as I'm thinking about this as we're sort of finishing up here, I think, um, the question I normally ask is what resources do you recommend? And I'm gonna assume you'd recommend your site, but if someone jumps on there, where's, where do you think they should- should start? How do they get the most from your site, you think? Eric Goll (27:46): Yeah. Geralyn Arango-Deely (27:47): From empoweringability.org. Eric Goll (27:49): Yeah. Thank you for, uh, [inaudible 00:27:51] So, you know, if you go to the, go to the website, um, just download one of the free guide- guides. So, I think the one that I have up there right now is the twel-, uh, 12 top secret tips, uh, to independence. And those tips have- have come from families that I have worked with so they're directly from the source. Um, so I- I recommend just downloading and then you'd be on my email list, and then, uh, whenever I do a free workshop, things like that, then I'll send it out to you and, um, and you'll- you'll get access to that. So, that'd be a good, uh, good starting point. Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:24): Okay. Okay, cool, cool. Is there... Did I forget anything? Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Eric Goll (28:30): Yeah. Well, one thing that I've been thinking about today is, you know, knowing where to enter in this conversation around the topic of siblings. And you, we kinda touched on it earlier... that often the conversations kind of go unsaid. Right? I think you asked me that question and- Geralyn Arango-Deely (28:50): Yeah, yeah. Eric Goll (28:51): ... we kind of talked about it a little bit and, um, I've... A couple years ago, I was working with, um, some other siblings doing some work, some sibling work. So we actually created a course for siblings and it's now transformed into, um, what's called Siblings Canada. And, um, so I'm not involved with the organization anymore but just through conversations with hundreds and hundreds of- of siblings, that conversation does go unspoken and I know not every family has kind of those other neurotypical sibling or siblings that are, that are there or engaged. But I think it's just so important that we have those conversations because if they go, if it goes unsaid and there's just assumptions on both sides, it creates this kind of tension, or maybe even animosity, or resentment. Um, so I think it's really important that- that we find ways to have those conversations and... I know different cultures are- are different, um, based on, you know, our- our backgrounds and kind of our family beliefs, those sorts of things. But I would invite parents to Gerry Arango (30:00): ... invite in other people, rather than say, "This is the role you're gonna play," 'cause most of the siblings I've talked to don't wanna play the role that mom's playing or the role that dad's playing, right, and that might feel heavy. Eric Goll (30:13): Mm-hmm. Gerry Arango (30:14): So, you know, I invite parents to invite other people in, rather than maybe, tell them what to do, and um, I think the other- the other quick thing I wanted to mention was, I decided to focus my time and energy working more with parents than siblings, even though I am a sibling, because siblings... What I learned by working with siblings is that they're like, I only have so much influence, right? You know, it's often mom that's- that's in that leadership role, and I can do all that I can to try and influence, but there's only so much that I can actually do, so I found, you know, focusing my work with parents, specifically mom, has been a lot more effective way to create change, um, and to help people with developmental disabilities to live a more awesome ordinary life. So, and I guess, one thing that I see is when- when parents are, uh, doing that work, doing that thinking, doing that learning, creating a life plan, that relieves a lot of stress from other people such as siblings, that might be like, "Well, what happens if mom or dad are no longer there?" Right? Eric Goll (31:31): Yeah. Gerry Arango (31:31): If- if there's a plan being built and, um, that's a great opportunity to have conversation with other, you know, siblings and to- and to invite them into that- that process. Um, so just some food for thought for- Eric Goll (31:45): I think that's- Gerry Arango (31:45): ... folks listening. Eric Goll (31:46): ... a really good snack because it is important to, I think for- for families often, we don't know, is it too soon to start this conversation? What am I supposed to say? And it's like, you know what? We are, like this is the path. It's like my little railroad tracks, it's like there's a third path, too, that this sibling who's living their life and doing what they're doing- Gerry Arango (32:10): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (32:10): And doing what they're doing, and I'm in my 20s, I'm in my 30s, I'm just building my own life, and then there's this other, you know, kind of conversation that needs to be had, especially... Like yourself, I have two children. My son has an older sister, and so we started having... I said, "I like," you know, "I'd like..." She's in the navy. She's married. She has a child. It's like- Gerry Arango (32:30): Yeah. Eric Goll (32:31): Um, you know, I- I think, what do you need to know while you're living this great big, crazy life of your own? You know, but, I... and I always kind of say to her, "I- I'm not gonna make you do anything. I don't want Nick living in your basement." You know? Gerry Arango (32:46): Right. Eric Goll (32:47): But I do feel like it is, it's something that I want you to just, kind of, you know, know what's going on and this is what this looks like and- and- and to not say, "You don't have to do anything right now, but I do want you to know what's going on." And so, I'm, you know, I'll be jumping on this site to learn more about how, you know, and other sites, too, I'm sure, to learn about how to have that conversation and he continue to ease into it, and- and invite the conversation. Gerry Arango (33:13): Mm-hmm. Eric Goll (33:13): Um, because it isn't just, thou shall take care of thy brother when I am, [inaudible 00:33:18] my award. It's more like, well, how do we do this? You know? Gerry Arango (33:21): Right. Eric Goll (33:22): And it's- it's big thing, it's big stuff. Gerry Arango (33:25): Right. Eric Goll (33:25): [inaudible 00:33:26] Gerry Arango (33:25): I can't- I can't- I can't hear enough about it, personally, and so, I am thrilled to have another place to go and- and have the conversation and look up the stuff, and get us thinking on our end, you know? Eric Goll (33:36): Yeah. Yeah, awesome. Well, it's awesome that you're thinking that way, right? Gerry Arango (33:39): Oh God (laughs). Eric Goll (33:41): Like, it's- it's just, it's a... It's a har- maybe, it feels like such a hard conversation to enter into, right? Like, it just feels heavy and there's a lot of emotions built into it, but I think, you know, if we think about, well, what if we don't have the conversation? What are the consequences of not having the conversation? And I think for siblings, and some siblings have lived through the experience of never having the conversation, right? Now that sibling's older. They- they have their own family, right? So you just mentioned, right? Gerry Arango (34:12): Yeah. Eric Goll (34:12): Like, your daughter has her own kids, her own family, busy life. Gerry Arango (34:16): Yeah. Eric Goll (34:17): Right? Now, what happens if we fast forward, you know, whatever, 20, 30, 40 years, right? Now, mom and dad are old. Now, that sibling's trying to provide care for aging parents. Now, they're, "Well, what do we do with our, how do we support our brother? How do we support our kids?" Right? Gerry Arango (34:34): Yeah. Eric Goll (34:35): It's like, and how do I keep my job? (laughs) Gerry Arango (34:38): We're a sandwich generation, you know? Eric Goll (34:39): Yeah, exactly. Gerry Arango (34:40): Plus extra tomatoes. And so, yeah, it's- it is, I think that's a really important point that, start early, start small, but do start, you know? Eric Goll (34:49): Yeah. Gerry Arango (34:49): Don't make believe there's no, nothing to think abo- talk about, uh, because you'd just rather not or because you're afraid to. Eric Goll (34:55): Yeah. Gerry Arango (34:56): You know, put your toe in the water and see how the water's going. And so, ha, it is tons of food for thought, and that's why I really, um, keep thinking about the sibling voice, and- and we had a sibling on last sibling, and I'm so glad that you were able to come, um, and speak to both, the resources that you provide, and the experience that you had, and continue to have, and so, you know, I wish you the best and I thank you so much for, uh, coming on the sh- on my little show today. Um, for sharing your story, for introducing us to Sarah, for introducing us to empoweringability.org. And so, everybody out there, I hope that you will all jump on empoweringability.org wherever you are on the path, you know? Eric Goll (35:39): Gerry, thank you so much for having me on the podcast today. It was a real pleasure, so thank you so much. Gerry Arango (35:45): Great, and to my listeners, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me on Our Parallel Paths today. I hope that you will like and subscribe to our podcast, tell your friends we're here, and I really hope that you will return to listen and learn from more stories of people like you and me, and our loved one with a disability on Our Parallel Paths. I'll see you next time.