Geralyn Arango Deeley (00:12):
Well, hey, family member. Let's talk about making our homes and our loved one's home, if they live in the community, safer and more accessible. Let's talk about staying independent in our homes, about aging in place, our place, and our loved one's place, with Dawn Heiderscheidt, founder and lead specialist of Aurora Independence.

(00:34):
Hello, and welcome to season five of Our Parallel Paths, A Future For My Loved One With a Disability... & For Me! I'm your host, Gerry, Dr. Geralyn Arango Deely, and this podcast is about just what the title says, the parallel paths of family members and their loved ones with intellectual disabilities. I'm a parent myself, and I always have questions. Our Parallel Paths is about nurturing and supporting ourselves as we nurture and support our loved ones with intellectual disabilities. Our roles as family members are ever-changing and evolving alongside our loved ones, so there's more than one path, more than one future to talk about, and that's why we're here. I hope the stories and perspectives of my podcast guests and me give you hope, information, and ideas for your path.

(01:25):
So, a little backstory on today's episode. In March of this year, I had a tasty lunch and a really good conversation at the Tech Accelerator Conference at Temple University. I love learning about assistive technology to share in my grad course, but I also try to apply it to my son's life and to my own. You probably remember that Nic lives in a two-story condo, townhouse, with his friend, and human supports and some technology, and my, my husband and I live in a 120-year-old four-bedroom, three-story, super-steppy townhouse twin. Can these homes be permanent situations, or will we and will Nic need to move in years to come because our homes are too challenging for us to age in? Because our homes are no longer accessible, no longer safe for us? So after the morning presentations at Temple, I sat down with my little box lunch and I got talking to the woman beside me. So, we swapped stories and experiences with tech, and I learned that the person I was chatting with happened to be the founder of an agency called Aurora Independence, and she's my guest today, Dawn Heiderscheidt, 'cause I want you to meet her too. So, welcome, Dawn, and first and foremost, can you tell us, what exactly is Aurora Independence?

Dawn Heidersheidt (02:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on today.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (02:53):
Thanks. Thanks for being here.

Dawn Heidersheidt (02:54):
Yeah, so Aurora Independence is kind of a company that started a little out of desperation and a little bit of out of, um, a passion, if that makes sense.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (03:03):
It does.

Dawn Heidersheidt (03:03):
So, we've been in business for about five years, and so obviously, if we're looking at timelines, that's around the time of COVID. And, what ended up happening is the company came into fruition kind of at the same time that I was going through some transitions. So, I was working in hospitals as an occupational therapist and kept seeing a lot of people come back to us, a lot of times with falls, and you start to realize, like, "Why do we have these frequent fallers?"

Geralyn Arango Deeley (03:31):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (03:31):
And, after a little bit, sort of from your introduction, you start to realize that these homes that individuals are going back home to really weren't set up for them to be successful, and while there's home care and there's all of that, unless you have an expert who can go out and really assess that space, things get missed, and unfortunately, what happens is the person living there feels the consequences of that, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Um, and so then when COVID happened and the hospital went crazy and the world went crazy, I sort of started this business and realized that I wanted to fill the gap between what healthcare is seeing in readmissions or injuries or things like that, and what the construction world is already pushing, which is aging in place. Because, while they're both important, there's definitely a, a miss. They're both kind of working in their individual silos and not necessarily talking to each other all the time, and so I figured here in the Philadelphia region, I wanted to create a business that solved that problem. So, that's where Aurora Independent started.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (04:26):
Yahoo. Yes. This is, this is great stuff. Um, so what can be ... You're saying falling, but what other challenges can there be in trying to age in place in your own home? Falling is huge. Other issues?

Dawn Heidersheidt (04:40):
Yeah. Falling is the number one, and I definitely think that the other part of it is just the introduction or the removal of supports. And so, what I mean by that is those human supports that may come in, technological supports that may come in. Um, we sort of, as individuals, we sort of have a way that we do things, and as our bodies change or disease processes progress or new innovations occur and we gain new skills, when we're working with other professionals, um, our home doesn't change, and so we tend to try to fit ourselves into that home situation. So, bathing can look different, dressing can look different, cooking a meal can start to look different, and the most amazing part of humans is that we always will kind of figure it out. But, the thing is, is we don't always figure it out in the most efficient way, because we only know what we know. Um, and unless we're pulling in the third eye or fourth eye, or sometimes fifth eye, we don't always see the whole picture, and so some of the challenges are just making our daily activities easier, less tiring, uh, more efficient, um, those kinds of things.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (05:44):
Okay. Okay. Um, so yeah, we, we do kind of work around sometimes, but there is this, the, the safety issue remains, and one of the supports that's out there is often, you know, human caregivers.

Dawn Heidersheidt (05:59):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (05:59):
But in my experience, they're hard to find. (laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (06:04):
They are, and they're even harder to keep, when and if for some reason the environment that we're living in makes it more difficult for them. So, you can have a really great caregiver who tweaked their back, and the way that your bathroom is set up makes it harder for them to help you bathe. Right? And so, when we talk about getting a caregiver, it's also a matter of, how do we keep them? And, there's personality fits in there, and there's also environmental fits, and there's also physical abilities, right?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (06:31):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, of the caregivers themselves. (laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (06:34):
Exactly.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (06:35):
Right. Right. Okay. And then, here's, you know, the, then the technology can step in as well. And, what I'm hoping to do is to sort of make my son into a case study, and I won't tell you what we have done, I'll just tell you, I'll sort of be a blank page, but what does your consultation process look like? Somebody says, "Hey, I'd love to have you co-, love to talk with you guys." What would that look-

Dawn Heidersheidt (06:56):
Yeah, so when I first kind of go into a home, since I am an occupational therapist, what I try to do is get a little bit of what we call an occupational profile. So I'm asking, "What's your past medical? What have you already tried? Who's involved in this decision-making process? Is everyone present today? Who else do we need to include?" And so, a lot of those first questions are really just to get to know the person.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (07:22):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (07:22):
And learn a little bit more about their perceptions of the environment. Of course, my, my assessment starts from the second I roll up to a house, condo, apartment, wherever we are. I'm starting to look at, like, stairs and lighting, and how easy was it for me to find the home? Um, if it wasn't easy for me, what is EMS going to have? What, what other issues are caregivers going to have? So, my assessment, my opinions start right away, um, but the real key here is to make sure that the individual and the family and any caregivers or decision-makers are part of that get-to-know-you process. Also, understanding that you live in this situation all the time. You know? Depending what your age is, that's how long you've known you. I'm gonna know you for a snapshot of a snapshot of a snapshot, so getting to know the perception of the other person is, is key for me, because I don't like to come in and tell you, "Here's what you need, here's the list." It's, "What are your problems? Where's your priority? Here's my priority. How do we blend these together? Have you considered this? Why did you use it? Why didn't you like it? Tell me more."

(08:28):
Um, 'cause sometimes it's just a matter of figuring out, you had the right solution, you just didn't stick with it long enough, or, no, that was the wrong solution from the get-go and here's the reasons why. So, it's a, it's very fluid, conversational introduction. A lot of it's talking.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (08:44):
It's, it's really great to hear that you, you do not come in as the expert. So many of us have been kind of scarred by the people telling us how it's done. The conversation is really key, and so, you know, you are also, are saying that, like, "Son of a gun, I am here for a moment. You're here for the duration, so, you know, we can play around with what works, and it might work, or then maybe you'll see something else or maybe even learn another technique. I don't know." Um, would you be willing to take a peek at some of the stuff that we've identified for Nic? Um, for my son, who's 27, and he lives in the community, he lives in, um, a two-story townhouse, my old condo, with his best friend, and he's got human supports, but sometimes I think to myself, "It's a lot of humans. Isn't there more I could kind of help him be more independent with?" And so, um, I can share a screen.

Dawn Heidersheidt (09:46):
I can, yes.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (09:46):
Okay, well, admittedly, you are not walking through the condo. It's in a development. You walk up and you, often people cannot see the numbers of the houses, but that's, that's almost the fault of the condo. But, one of the things that, um, I think about with Nic is just possible solutions. You know? Those things to maybe try, and I can share some of the things that we have done, but if you look at this list, and listeners, you can't see this list, so I'll read it to you. It's, um, getting in and out of the house, answering the doorbell, what to do in an emergency, timing - just how long something takes to do. Stove safety, shower safety, sharing the space with a roommate, you know, in a kinder way. Getting to bed on time to get up for work, getting up, taking pills, communicating with me, because sometimes he doesn't answer the phone, little turd, and reminders of like, just, charging your phone, you know? So, what I think about is, I know what we, things we've tried, but if you were sort of presented with some of these issues, what are some of your go-tos? I'm curious.

Dawn Heidersheidt (11:02):
Yeah, so we'll start kind of and go down the list. So, getting in and out of the house, one of the first things that you need to look at is, what is the person capable of doing? So, what is their grip like? Do they have all the different type of pincher grasps that they need?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (11:17):
Right.

Dawn Heidersheidt (11:18):
Are they able to follow directions? How well are they able to problem-solve through things? How many steps does it take before they kind of get lost or forget what they're supposed to be doing? And, that will be very individual specific, so I'll just trust that, let's say he can do everything. Um, then you start to look at, well, what do they naturally want to do, getting in and out of the house?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (11:41):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (11:41):
Where are they putting their hands? Are they grabbing onto the doorframe? Is it the doorknob? Do they not look at anything safety related at all? In which case, how are we going to draw attention to that option? So, one of, some my go-tos are really railings, grab-bars in non-traditional spaces.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (11:57):
Okay.

Dawn Heidersheidt (11:59):
Um, and also, in conjunction with, what does that individual sort of bring to the table there? What are their strengths, what are their weaknesses, and how can we address that?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:08):
It is individualized, isn't it?

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:10):
There's no, no go-to for a single person.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:13):
Yeah. The good news for us-

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:15):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:15):
Is that after, with considerable trial and effort, Nic just uses a house key.

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:21):
There you go.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:22):
And so, yeah. Um, I know people who ... It's funny, I, I know people who have, uh, the, the key, keyed entry.

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:28):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:28):
And Nic would have more trouble with the keyed entry than he does with the key, so-

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:32):
Well, because it's more steps, right, and it's not as natural. It's new and it's exciting, but sometimes the key is all you need, and those electronic locks, if the battery dies, you still need a key to get in, so ...

Geralyn Arango Deeley (12:44):
Right, right. Okay. So, any others that, like, as you look at the lists, that sort of jump out as solutions, um, that you recommend, that you, are some of your favorites?

Dawn Heidersheidt (12:55):
So, what to do in an emergency is a big one that brings a lot of questions, a lot of conversation, and, and oftentimes a lot of, a lot more assessment of the individual, their abilities, and how comfortable they are with tech. So, for example, iWatches, iPhones, they have a lot of options that you don't need to buy an emergency alert system, but we're so stuck on that idea that we need to get the, the fall alert. The, "I've fallen and I can't get up," but our iPhone can do a lot of that, so if someone's already an iPhone user-

Geralyn Arango Deeley (13:28):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (13:29):
Sometimes all I do is I'll take time to explain to them, "Hey, you're already paying for this. Let's use some of the features that you already have, An iWatch - um, it does fall detection, it can call emergency services. There's so many things that it can do, so sometimes what to do in emergency is, how do we use the tech you already have?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (13:47):
That's a, that's, that's good news, because I mean, even through the years, even teaching the course in assistive technology, I remember kind of feeling like I've gone from the, the special needs catalog to the stuff that's already in the classroom, that's already on your, in your pocket. And that's great news for all of us because, you know, if I fall and I can't get up, I need that too, so it's kind of drilling down into your phone or your device and seeing what it can do. Okay? Okay, so that's an emergency piece as well. Um, how about any of the others? Any of the others kind of-

Dawn Heidersheidt (14:22):
Yeah, I mean, looking at some of these, like, I'm thinking stove safety and shower safety. Um, sometimes what I have to do when I go to assess those is, is kind of bring people back from the edges, and what I mean is, there are so many options out there. There are ways that you can control how long the stove stays on. You can cover the knobs if you need to, so someone doesn't use the stove. You can have automatic turnoffs, and those are fantastic and they sound like something you wanna purchase, but believe it or not, some of them are so over-engineered that they actually don't make life easier, or they're, they're not quite there yet, that they say that they're gonna do a thing and they don't really. And so, sometimes with some of those, so stove or shower safety things, it's really a matter of, "Let's read the reviews, let's talk about who's used it before, let's interview people," because sometimes it's just not worth the money at that time, or it's a technology that we just wanna watch a little bit longer. So, reading through the options is sort of one of the other things I help people do.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (15:29):
Okay. Yeah, because it does matter. You know, it may be a lovely idea for one person, but not a lovely idea for another.

Dawn Heidersheidt (15:35):
Mm-hmm.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (15:36):
I, you know, love to look in the catalog and go, "Let's try that," only to put it as, on a shelf somewhere. And, yeah, I mean, using some stuff, it's true. Some stuff does feel a little over-engineered. Some well-meaning brilliant person, um, decided to answer all the questions, and it was like, "Oh, now you created new questions." Uh-oh. You know, find all the answers. Uh-oh, new questions.

Dawn Heidersheidt (15:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was just having this conversation with a client. I said, "When we solve one problem, we sometimes create another one." So for example, just like, standing up from a reclining chair. There's these amazing standers that you can kind of use the chair weight to put on top, so that you can have something to kind of hold onto. It's almost like a cane at the side of your, of your chair or your bed or your couch, and that's great, but now you're putting a chair on something plastic, so sometimes a chair that wouldn't have wiggled on the carpet now will wiggle, because it's on plastic, so now we have to go purchase a silicone chair bottom.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (16:31):
(laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (16:31):
So that we can create more friction, so yes, we made it easier to stand, but now we made it unsafe to stand 'cause the chair is no longer as steady. So, we solve one problem, we create another.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (16:41):
Made another. (laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (16:41):
(laughs) And-

Geralyn Arango Deeley (16:42):
Okay. I don't feel so bad for create,... because I create those problems myself.

Dawn Heidersheidt (16:48):
And we all do, right? And, and for, for families and caregivers or people who are just overwhelmed, sometimes what I can do is just bring this information to them so they don't waste their time purchasing something that they're like, "You know what? The cons are, are too great, too long, too many. I don't wanna deal with it. We'll deal with the issue we're having." Keep the devil you know, right?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (17:07):
Yeah. Yeah.

Dawn Heidersheidt (17:08):
Um, so sometimes it's just having somebody kind of walk you through it, to be like, "Oh, we've tried this. Here's what's gonna happen if you do it. Do you want to try that?"

Geralyn Arango Deeley (17:16):
Okay. Okay. Well, that's ... You're saving us steps and that means something, too, and, and hopefully also some money, because-

Dawn Heidersheidt (17:23):
Hopefully.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (17:24):
Some of that stuff is expensive, and just buying bunches of stuff is expensive anyway, so, um, okay. That's-

Dawn Heidersheidt (17:32):
Well, and you've talked about it. I mean, and, and I'm sure everybody listening has a closet that is filled with a bunch of items that they purchased and they stopped using, but for some reason they don't wanna get rid of because they spent good money on it. And that could be as simple as a shower chair, it could be as complex as some assistive tech, but yeah, it's, we all ... We all abandon the technology use at some point. I mean, even people with prosthetics, a lot of individuals don't use their prosthetics five to 10 years out because it's created more problems, and it's easier for them to not even use it, so keeping things like that in mind is really important when we're talking about aging in place for anybody at any age. Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (18:06):
Okay. The other thing I think about with my son, um, is the sort of, the cool factor, you know, and that I'm kind of always encouraged when the phone can do something and it's not kind of an add-on, goofy looking thing. Not that anybody's really looking, but he is, you know, and he senses, "This is not, this isn't ordinary." This is, you know, a lot, too much.

Dawn Heidersheidt (18:35):
Well, 'cause that can affect self-image, right?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (18:35):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (18:35):
And self-worth, you know? It can create a whole, a snowball of internal monologues that we just don't need if we can avoid it, you know?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (18:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Any others that jump out as you're looking at my little list here?

Dawn Heidersheidt (18:48):
Well, I mean ... I know, I know. Well, and so I think taking pills is the other one that sometimes gets over-engineered, and sometimes it is simply a pill box, and sometimes it's just reminders on phones. So, looking at a lot of these, it's at, there's no good one answer for every person, but I think that process of learning to ask the right questions is what helps you work through some of the ones that you have listed here.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (19:13):
Okay, and it's funny, we ... I think, I remember sitting there talking to you about this, and you said something that made me smile because it was validating. Um, and when it came to communicating with me, because sometimes when I am calling from here to see how he's doing up there, he doesn't answer the phone.

Dawn Heidersheidt (19:28):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (19:28):
It's me, you know, and one of the things, I said, "You know, I don't have cameras in the house." And then I, I decided to get cameras, and I bought pet cams.

Dawn Heidersheidt (19:39):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (19:39):
And you said, "That's what I recommend to people sometimes, is pet cams." (laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (19:45):
I do. I do. Well, 'cause they're so affordable. They're great.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (19:47):
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Heidersheidt (19:48):
My pet cam is better tha n some of the age tech items that exist out there. It's clearer. You can see better. You can talk through it. It's, it's fantastic.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (19:56):
Yeah, and really simple, and you know, for what I need, sometimes it's just, "Are you in the house?" And he usually, he always is in the house, but it came in a pack of three. One is in the basement, one is in the kitchen, and one is in the living room. I don't put it in his bedroom because I, you know, I respect his privacy. Um, I should put it in the bathroom 'cause he'd be blow-drying his hair, but-

Dawn Heidersheidt (20:17):
(laughs)

Geralyn Arango Deeley (20:17):
(laughs) yeah, but that's, it was a, it's sort of a middle of the road solution that he doesn't mind. And I, I find I don't even need to use it that often, but it's there.

Dawn Heidersheidt (20:32):
Yeah, and I think what's nice about those is then you know it's not tracking you necessarily, either, 'cause some of the age tech can track a person through the rooms, and it'll, like, send reports, and it feels really invasive, but a baby monitor or pet monitor, like, they do just enough. You can hear someone screaming and you can see if they're in that room.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (20:52):
Yeah, and that's just, for me, it's just, "Hey, are you okay there? Because, you know, somebody's coming at night, but they're not gonna be here for a little while, and I just want you to know, you know, we're out there." And, um, just anything else that you'd wanna share with us about your advice for keeping my home, Nic's home, accessible for as long as possible and safe for as long as possible?

Dawn Heidersheidt (21:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think my biggest thing is, for people who haven't started thinking about it, um, start, so this is my more aging in place, older adults. Like, start earlier than you think. Um, mostly because what we don't want is to try to implement something new during an emergency. We want to already have those skills so that when and if you need to use it, it's already there. So, for example, getting someone who has a cognitive deficit to learn how to use a shower grab-bar, that takes time, and so you don't want to do it when they've just suffered a fall and they have a concussion. That's the worst time to learn a new skill.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (21:52):
Right.

Dawn Heidersheidt (21:53):
Um, and then for individuals who live with a, with disease process, cognitive processes, whatever, um, or a certain condition, you know, keep your eyes open, because what's working now, there's so many cool tech items coming out, but don't have shiny object syndrome.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (22:09):
(laughs)

Dawn Heidersheidt (22:10):
You know? Like, we do like to be early adopters, a lot of us, but that comes with its own risk, so kind of assess your own risk tolerance so that you know whether you're gonna be an early adopter or if you'll be someone who kind of waits for the second or third version to come out. But, there's so much out there.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (22:27):
Okay. Yeah, and I have shiny object syndrome to an extent.

Dawn Heidersheidt (22:29):
We all do.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (22:30):
A mild case of shiny object syndrome. Um-

Dawn Heidersheidt (22:33):
Honestly, though, it's kind of cool, because some of those items coming out, they're looking for early adopters. You get it for cheaper, it's free, they want feedback, so sometimes being that shiny object could get you some really cool stuff, but knowing that some of it's probably gonna fail.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (22:48):
Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen things come and go that I loved. I mean, uh, a food shopping list that he was able to use on his phone that just, it, it was magic, and then it just never went past version one. And I thought, "Wow, this one was so doable for him. He could take the pictures and then he'd just click 'em off." And then I said, "Well, are there ways I could do that without an app?" You know? And it was just like, well, they did such a, almost a great job with this. I wish they had been able to follow through. Nic has an app that we got, I think for $3.99 when it first came out, that was an organ-, to

Dawn Heidersheidt (23:28):
Oh, wow.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (23:29):
And so we, you know, we just keep updating with our little cheap one, and-

Dawn Heidersheidt (23:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (23:33):
You know, so it is k-, it's fun stuff. Like I said, I teach this, too. Um-

Dawn Heidersheidt (23:37):
It is fun.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (23:38):
Is there any question I should have asked you that I didn't, you think?

Dawn Heidersheidt (23:43):
Oh, that's a great question, and I, I think you did a really good job right now, so I don't have one to give. I would just say, what I like to leave individuals with is to know that you're not out there alone. Um, there's a lot of really cool things. I mean, this podcast is a great resource in and of itself. Um, and just know that there are other people who are trying to fill in the gaps, so if you're, if you're looking for a question, there's probably someone out there who's trying to answer it for you. The question is how to find them, you know?

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:11):
Okay. Okay. Yeah, and so, I'm glad we found you, and, um, how would we, how do we find you?

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:19):
Oh, great question.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:19):
All our listeners? Yeah. How do we find you?

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:21):
Yeah, so-

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:22):
Because I know, but they need to know, too.

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:26):
I am online. Um, that's one of the easiest ways to get to me, and it is just auroraindependence.com, that's my website. There is a way to kind of put in an inquiry request, if you want. You can give me your phone number, email, things like that, and I can reach out to you. Um, I have a phone number that's on the website, so I'll let you put that there.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:45):
Alrihght.

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:46):
WE'll go from there, yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:46):
Okay. We'll go from there.

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:48):
Yeah. Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:49):
All right, well this is-

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:50):
That's usually the easiest way.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:52):
Yeah.

Dawn Heidersheidt (24:52):
Is website, email inquiry. We usually try to get back to people within 48 hours.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (24:57):
That's great. That's great. How many people are in your organization?

Dawn Heidersheidt (25:00):
So, it's mostly me, but I do have two to three other OTs who offer one or two, maybe five hours a month. They're, they're independent contractors, so when they have the availability and I have the caseload, I'll send it to them, but primarily it's me right now.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (25:12):
All right.

Dawn Heidersheidt (25:12):
Yeah.

Geralyn Arango Deeley (25:13):
All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing the helpful information, all this expertise. I am so glad you made time to speak with us today, and listeners, I want to thank you for spending time with me on today's episode of Our Parallel Paths, with Dawn Heiderscheidt of Aurora Independence. I hope you will check out her site, maybe even schedule a consultation. I also hope, listeners, that you'll like, comment, and follow our podcast, that you'll share it with family and friends, and I really hope that you'll return to listen and learn from more stories of people like you and me and our loved one with a disability, on Our Parallel Paths. I'd love to hear from you. You're not alone. Feel free to comment, to rate the podcast, to join our Facebook group. This podcast is produced by Networks for Training and Development, and I'll see you next time. Bye.